Bet on People with Matt Abrams

In this episode of Bet on People we're joined by Matt Abrams.

Matt has spent over 30 years operating across government agencies, startups, enterprises, healthcare, and venture capital — with a throughline focused on building trusted information environments. 

He is the Co-Founder of $1 Billion for Trust, a non-profit building the community, infrastructure, and capital to fund solutions that strengthen trust in information, in one another, and in critical institutions. 

His motto — printed on his hat — is "leave it better," and when he's not working to solve the information crisis, you'll find him in the mountains of Oregon or at the Ben & Jerry's franchise he and his wife own in Bend, Oregon.

This episode we discuss:

1. That leadership is all about being in service to your team
2. The value of spreading bad news quickly inside an organization
3. How important intellectual humility is in leadership
4. Why keeping your North Start at the head of your decisions will serve you and those around you
5. & so much more

Connect with Matt and Euda:

$1 Billion for Trust: https://1billionfortrust.org

Leave It Better Project: https://leaveitbetterproject.com/

Matt Abrams website: https://www.mattabrams.org

Matt Abrams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattabrams/

Follow Euda at https://www.linkedin.com/company/euda-io/

Learn more about Euda at euda.io

Subscribe to The Euda Debrief: https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7435041512645718017

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

I'm Keegan Evans, executive coach and founder of UDA, and this is Bet on People, a podcast where we explore the decisions behind the human-centered leadership and why betting on people isn't just good for people, it's smart business. Our guest today is Matt Abrams, co-founder of One Billion for Trusts, a nonprofit building the community, infrastructure, and capital to fund solutions that strengthen trust and information in one another and in our critical institutions. Matt's an experienced operator, investor, advisor, and board member, and has spent over 30 years in the software industry, working across various government agencies, startups, enterprises, healthcare, and venture capital funds. And I'm proud I got that in one breath. Matt has one simple motto that you won't be able to forget because it's on his hat. Leave it better. When he's not immersed in reading and writing, working to solve our information and trust crisis, he's somewhere in the mountains of Oregon. We're eating ice cream with the local Ben and Jerry's that he and his wife own. Matt, we've known each other for a while, but it's an absolute pleasure and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

It's great to be here. Thanks, Keegan.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Uh jumping right in. Uh I'd love for you to tell me and and everyone in the audience a little a bit about the through line of your work and specifically around leadership. What's what's that important? Uh why is trust important in leadership and and how and when did you come to this understanding?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

So I think that the there are a couple different questions in there. Trust in relation to leadership, and then the through line, two separate questions in in some respects, but related. From a leadership perspective, I had a mentor of mine who had introduced me to the teachings of Max Dupree. And for those who aren't familiar, Max Dupree, uh founder of Herman Miller, uh, the Max Dupree Leadership Institute, and um, he had a famous saying, or has a famous saying, which says the first responsibility of a leader is to define reality, the last is to say thank you. And in between, a leader is a servant and a debtor. And that has always resonated with me so much. And and um it is one of those things where it is like, you know, being up front, here the here's here's the reality, here are the facts to your team, to your customers, to anyone within the orbit, if you will, of you know, being up front, direct, candid, so on and so forth. Um there's a there's an equally, you know, uh framing or lesson that I've learned uh through another colleague and friend of mine that that said, you know, bad news is not like fine wine. It doesn't get better with time. And that is, you know, deliver that candid reality up front quickly, so on and so forth. And the other part of Max Dupree's comments is to um just you know, the last is to say thank you, uh, and in between a leader is a servant and a debtor. Um leaders are fundamentally only in that position, uh, and it is to serve their team and the people around them. And I think that that is so often forgotten. And there are plenty of times I've failed in that throughout my my life and my career, and there are things that I learned way too late, uh, which I wish I had learned earlier. But we have forgotten. We we in today's environment, we tend to try to conflate leadership with these personas that are on high, and and they're the ones that that people should be, you know, you know, serving and bowing down to or whatever it may be. Yeah. But I just that's not it. You're uh you're not a leader without your people, without the team members around you, and how you treat them and how you treat people writ large, that matters. Um so that that's the answer to your your first question there. Yeah, but I'll pause before we jump in further.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

The first responsibility is define the reality, is so crucial. Founders or anyone in anyone who's in a leadership role, especially those who are learning into leadership roles. Uh, I I teach the the goals, roles, processes, relationships framework and defining the goals. Like that's defining the reality. You can't you can't you can't have functional organizations without having a common sense of reality. And that doesn't mean a dictatorial definition of reality or a toxic uh you know cognod dissonance reality, but yeah, your responsibility to the people in service of the people to define it. Um I also want to uh throw in I I like your your bad news is not like fine wine is a much more refined version of how I originally heard that, uh, which is bad news is like fish. Neither get better better with time.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

So there you go. But it's like that is one of those things that I wish, and and I'm reflecting um a couple years ago, there was testimony that Brad Smith, the president of Microsoft, gave, and David Calhoun, the CEO of Boeing at the time, gave to Congress. And they were roughly about two weeks apart in their testimonies. And Brad talked about how we endeavor to be, I'm paraphrasing, we endeavor to be an organization where bad news travels quickly and where we encourage that. And he said, We're we're not there yet, we're working on that. And it was juxtaposed with at the time David Calhoun's testimony, who very candidly, um, that was a perfect example in complete shit leadership and frankly shit humanity, yeah. Where he couldn't bring himself to just give a straight answer or to be contrite or to, and particularly after killing people. And so those are two leadership examples that really are like how do we train, incentivize, and encourage people to not be afraid to deliver bad news at whatever level it may be.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah. How does that intersect with uh with trust and how you've come to really focus on trust as a concept and trust uh uh in society?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

I think the trust element, like my through line, and and this goes back to the the first question as well, was my through line has always been around the information environment and how do we have high-quality information on which we can make decisions, either personally or uh behind the firewalls in organizations. And that is something where obviously in today's environment in particular, it's even more critical and it's gotten harder. And there's that uh trust element that even if we have high quality information on which to make decisions, if we're not able to have dialogue and discussion and disagreement and debate, then we can't solve our biggest problems, even if we've got the best quality information in front of us. And so that trust element, particularly from a leadership and a team perspective, if you create a culture where it is a culture of fear, or it is a culture of just nod your head and go along and and um um you know, sycophanti, if you will, um, then you don't have trust. You have, you know, just automatons doing what you're you know, what what you tell them to do, but you are not getting the best of people whatsoever. And you create this environment where um like that becomes a self-fulfilling flywheel of rewarding some of the worst behaviors, and it turns into and you and you can see historically, you can see organization after organization as to if people are afraid to surface, you know, and and uh you of all people probably know this better than most in terms of having served in in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you're not giving the facts and instead trying to put uh whether uh your marketing over it, political paper over it, so on and so forth, then in your situation, people die. Yep. And in other situations, okay, people lose money, or um, there are any number of ripple effects on bad decisions. But unless you create that culture and environment where uh there is that trust out at the center, like bad things happen.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. Yeah, you're spot on. Uh and in in the interest of uh uh accurate facts and accurate information that I did only serve in Iraq, uh, but that's because my my Boeing product back there uh wasn't gonna really perform great in the mountains uh in Afghanistan. So we stuck to the lowlands uh of Iraq. Um but it does tie in exactly what you're saying with aviation. We have what's called crew resource management. It's the is the fundamental concepts, and this this isn't just Marine Corps or military aviation, it's it's it's it's in all aviation. And there's seven critical skills that are effective for crew resource management. And one of my favorites is situational awareness, which the official definition of is um the degree to which one's perception of reality accurately matches real reality. Uh and so much of what you've just said ties into that uh around the environment of honest, uh, you know, bad news traveling fast being being a better one in order to inform better decisions. Uh and the the perception of control, which can lead to the, you know, there's some folks out there who might be like, well, yeah, that's what I want. I know all the right answers. I need automatons uh to just do my work. We're always going to be miss something. That that's a false sense of security of perfect information. And and and uh decision making in imperfect in imperfect information environments is one of the most crucial things around leadership that I've found, uh, which actually segues us very nicely into kind of the meat of our conversation. And because at Bet on People, we like to talk about the decisions, which are some of the most tangible actions that a leader takes. So across your varied career, I'd love to hear uh a particular story where you made a decision as a leader where you you aired maybe against the people in front of you and more for the organization or by the book for maximizing shareholder value or whatever fits into that kind of framing.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

There was a I'll keep the names of organizations out um and people, this kind of thing. Um there was a organization I spent a lot of time at where and it goes back to there was both a culture of fear and also a um a throwaway, a lack of appreciation, and incredibly, incredibly political. And I'll I'll try to give the framing, and you can pull the hook on me at any point. Um the we had released a flagship product that was marketed and sold and hyped up, so on and so forth. And it was released with great fanfare and was terrible in terms of its quality. And the analogy I would give is not too different than since we're on the aviation analogy to some degree, back on Boeing in the 737 Max. There were plenty of people that it's come out that hey, you know, warned, knew about, you know, so on and so forth of the issues, concerns, you know, et cetera. And but they were demonized, harassed, you know, whatever, uh, and people ended up dying. In our case, it wasn't that uh people ended up dying, uh, it was serious implications financially to people's jobs, you know, broader impacts, too, in some respects, people's health care, um, based upon where the system was and how it was deployed, um, but not to the extent of a Boeing and in that aspect. Sure. And the you had the senior most people in the company who were were fearful and were treated in in terrible ways, and then they would, you know, treat you know their employees that way as well, their team members that way. And um I was by no means perfect. Yeah, yeah. But uh, but I I would like to think that I um my team members were think of them, they were the rescue squad. They were the group that when when shit hit the fan, that they were the team that went in to solve the hardest, gnarliest issues. And they were oftentimes put in um impossible positions. And most of the calls I would initially have were with senior leaders from um uh other uh from customers who the first calls would be, we're gonna sue your ass. And I remember one um period in particular where my team members had been working multiple days, multiple nights in a row to resolve a very high profile uh situation such that it had an impact directly on the stock price of the company. And um that was the year that um well, I I can't get in I'll I'm keeping up the names. But suffice to say, um what the senior most people in the company did, they got um fat and happy and were awarded and and all this. And my team members didn't get anything. And uh I ended up resigning in part. Um and one of the requirements I had was for coming back was um you're gonna give bonuses to the team. Full stop. And um without the team members there, without them, it wasn't just just me, the company as a whole would have suffered greatly. And yet nobody was appreciating the value and the contributions they made and simply looked at them as numbers on a spreadsheet. And um so I'll pause there. But that's that was an example for me of of at the end of the day, you've got to stand up for your people, they can't be treated like crap. Um, there were plenty of other examples around that where um individuals were trying to do so, and it's like if you're gonna treat people that way, then then we're gone. Um so I'll pause there.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah. I'm curious where um, and maybe this isn't the the the right example for this, but where up until the point of the the senior leadership decision that was we're you know we're we're gonna leave them out, and then which triggered your response to resign, had you do you look back and reflect on any decisions that you made along the way prior to that that perhaps uh allowed or persisted that you're shitting on people um piece to to go through?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Uh it's a really good question. Um and I don't um I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

And um early on earlier on in my career and in other roles, yes. Yeah, yeah. There are absolutely things where uh Keegan, I wished uh earlier on I had learned um and a mutual colleague of ours, uh Dave Hirsch and I were talking about this. And I want to give credit to Dave because he's the CEO at Intandem, and and he summed it up well. Where our discussion was uh, again, paraphrasing, we wish both of us earlier on in our lives had had learned intellectual humility. Yeah. Yeah. And that is something that, and particularly maybe from a male perspective, um, there were plenty of of years I look at and go, I thought I was a cocky, you know, Newton, know it all, you know, you name it. And I look back and I'm not proud of how I acted or reacted in in some situations, recognizing that that also has helped make me who I am for for better and for worse.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Certainly, yeah. Would you uh would you be willing to get a little more specific about one of those situations uh that that you wish you'd done differently?

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Um I think it was more just over a general period of time where I had particularly this this um this hubris and also viewed things through a lens of people uh of being black and white, and and even the most basic things where um if someone was not specifically, if you were not right on time to a meeting or something, or um uh if a noise was made in the midst of a meeting, so and so forth, and you were on a phone call, so on and so forth, I would have a short temper or something. And I I didn't have kids at the time. I wasn't married, yeah. And had no I had no appreciation, no intellectual humility, no compassion for um how how and what most people are living and what they're going through. And so that was just a period where um, if I look back, I was a young, immature, dipshit punk that thought he knew more than he did.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah. What were some of the what what what kind of outcomes did you have on say like someone was late to a meeting or or made a noise on a call and you you had that short temper response and you you know you're black and white thinking, you're trying to uphold the standards of excellence. But the follow-on to that, what what resulted from that kind of behavior?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Um I think that the follow-on that resulted in that was more relationship oriented. Um because uh as I'm looking back, I'm I'm not cognizant enough to know uh or even remember as to hey what were the outcomes from the results on something. Yeah, yeah. It was I had a colleague of mine uh at one point, and this was this was years later. He said, You know what our nickname was for you? He's like, the devil.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

I'm guessing that wasn't uh because the devil's cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

It was not because the devil's cool. And and I I I do recall as well another period. Um I'm dusting off the memory banks here, yeah. I'm certainly not proud of this one.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Um that um someone, however, I treated and acted in an interview, um, they left crying.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

In an interview for a job with you all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah. And like that's where um the again, the lack of intellectual humility um and compassion. And I think it's so important. And and um man, I wish I had learned a lot of things earlier.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Thank you. The reason I push on a little more specifics is because I think that there are a lot of folks uh who fit into the profile of you and me who spend time along their careers really feeling they're doing the right thing for the organization, holding these un uh unyielding standards. Uh to this day, I have a hard time uh walking into a gas station in in like workout clothes because the Marine Corps standard for uniform wear uh was that it was you know it shall never happen.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

And that's a minor example. Uh but jumping down people's throats for for things without the broader context can lead to those things.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

And I and I I'm I'm imagine you don't have follow-on context for the individual who the interviewee who left crying. You have your own you have your own results, but that that I didn't get I'm not getting the impression from you that it was uh they left crying because they were clearly unfit for the role and would not have brought value into the role.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Um you know, in hindsight, part of my perspective was th what was that? Yeah. Um but without having without being the person if I were there today interviewing and asking, um I I I can't tell you. All I know is that I did a shitty job, and that that is one of those things, you know, on me. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Let's swing it the other way. You you talked already about the example where you uh advocated for your team to the point of resignation. Um and then but and not just a self-martyrdom, but you have a chance to make this better and get us back, but you have to having the standards of coming in. What what is uh is there another example of really making uh in the in the moment uh where where perhaps you had even more authority over an organization and you you applied these lessons of people based decisions?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Aaron Ross Powell There's another example that uh it's I'll I'll call it people in principle. Based decisions.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And I I before I jump into that, I want to come back to something you said in relation to standards and how people are working for standards in the organization. And it depends upon the organization, because I think most organizations do a really shitty job of setting standards. And if they do, they're setting the wrong ones. And um I look back and I often tell people, I and I I use the example of Facebook or Meta regularly on this, that if you and I had been some of the first employees at Facebook, and revenue was up into the right, and there were fat bonuses and sales club trips, and we got to go on those, so on and so forth, and we saw the damages that social media was causing, would we have had the moral fortitude to say this is fucked and we're leaving? And I would like to say I would have, but I think that's arrogant of me as well. Because when people when you're when you don't have your North Star principles or morals and your grounding that you are centered on, and even more so when you are tied to the economic handcuffs or the possibility of economic handcuffs, some some because you know um there's an absolute necessity and need where you don't have the flexibility of being you know in a fortunate position to say, hey, I'm gonna leave such an organization. That's a very hard thing for folks. And there's so often today, and particularly in today's world, I think, where people are in environments because they have economic either needs or or in some cases perceived economic needs, certainly from a status perspective or title perspective, whatever it may be, friendship perspective, um, that they're willing to sacrifice principles for and I'm not talking of um we can we can debate in terms of you know principles, and for instance, in terms of Silicon Valley in relation to getting involved, even in in what's going on in real time with anthropic and the and the Department of War. I'm talking about more general ones. And um I think that that's a significant thread and a significant piece as part of this. And how do we cultivate the right sets of human principles amidst any environment of how you treat your team members, how do you treat other people, so on and so forth that are non-negotiables. And I don't think we've we really discuss that from a leadership perspective enough. Um so that's that's that's one aspect I'd throw out there.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yeah. But for you to, we've got leadership principles. And our first one is uh assume everyone's trying to do the right thing. Uh and this comes from I learned this from my first CO, my first fleet CO. It was a really powerful way to capture something you talked about earlier in terms of young 20-something, not having perspective on the totality of life. But it the the point is, you know, it's it's assume positive intent, but the real it's deeper than that. It's try to understand what are the combination of factors and pressures that it's not about someone making a binary choice of, okay, this I'm going to sacrifice this principle. It's what are the combination of factors that create the set of realities and perceptions where that is what they their action felt like the right choice. And that's not to excuse or justify, but it's to help connect and create a path backwards. Uh, there's still going to be consequences. You know, that this it starts, this was applied most to junior Marines with DUIs or arrests or you know, screwing up as eight 18 to 21-year-olds do. Um but having that state of uh it's not about fight, you know, finding the fastest path to cutting them off and assuming that everyone's trying to do the right thing is is a piece of that. It also is really valuable because even when we're in that hard-charging uh polarity-based 20s where there's a there's a clear right and wrong, we are still consumed by things we don't even detect and understand. And so it's a it's a powerful self-reflection tool as well to really to really break down and analyze.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Um our own insecurities, our own egos, our own imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Very much so. Yeah. Absolutely. It's so it's so critical uh to that.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I think one thing as well, where I think just to your point, just about every organization has their leadership leadership principles, yada, yada, yada. How much of it's just window dressing versus actually being uh incentivized and and uh you know you can incentive you can you can say um and and I'll use Belina's example, they can say, hey, we're all about quality. But unless you incentivize it and create the culture that that supports that, you can have your your commandments of leadership principles on the wall that mean absolutely frickin' nothing.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah. Well you just summarize uh and the way I summarize it is values are what's written on the wall. Culture is the sum total of actions and decisions of everyone in the organization with a higher weight applied to those with more authority. Yeah. Uh and uh or as Johnny says, culture is the worst behaviors tolerated. Yeah. So Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

So where was uh where was a uh decision that you made uh that that applied these lessons uh and and bucked the trend of um uh of what what would have been good business to to be tighter against people uh but ended up ended up being your the the right decision for you um this this was more about I think probably setting example more than anything than and and the the people in a flat organization around me where um I left an organization that was um very toxic um both uh things that externally had had come out uh and also internally and I left that and I left a lot of money on the table. So the business decision there was hey, you could argue it was a poor personal business decision of me saying, Hey, I'm out of here. Yep. Um and I will never regret that, you know, one bit. And I was sort of the the door opener for a number of others then thereafter, um, punching out. And um there, you know, again, I come back to Keegan. I I was fortunate and am fortunate that I was even able to make that decision to say, hey, I can walk away from this amount of dollars, so on and so forth, because of principles for which I think are important. A lot of people aren't able to be in that position. And I think it's so important for us to understand and recognize that, and um that's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

What was something that that led to for you? What did that did it uh obviously we walked away from those specific dollars, uh, but I really liked how you mentioned it opened up the door for others to follow. And and uh in the in the grand scheme of societal value, what did you and and some of those others who were able to get out of that toxic environment through as in part through your example, go on to accomplish as a result?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

One I think just freedom. Yeah. I mean, um uh intellectual, moral, human freedom, like, oh, okay, it's not as scary or as bad as I as I think by by moving on or or punching out. Like we always think that uh things are are worse than they necessarily are in many respects. Um I think um it certainly in this particular case it opened up also much more focus as to what and who at the point in my life where I was at truly matters. Yeah. What what stuff is just frickin' window dressing or what doesn't matter, what's not that important. And um that is something where um look, had I not done that, you and I wouldn't be sitting here. Had I not done that, I wouldn't be doing Billion for Trust. I wouldn't have gotten involved in the Citizens' Assembly's efforts or the decency project or doing a Ben and Jerry's ice cream shop or things like that. And um and I and so I guess my biggest takeaway is um, and I see this in throughout the the world at large, um people need to find really what are the what are the principles for which they are willing to sacrifice or not because you'll be put in situations where those are gonna be tested and those are gonna be you're gonna have things thrown against them. Um and there's a there's um a friend of mine that that um I reflect upon again, I'll keep you know his company name out of things. Um but I remember him telling me um that you know he he had overseen one of the largest IPOs in in the world. And he said, um I can call up anyone and we you know and I can have drinks or dinner, so on and so forth, but I have no friends. And he said, I have more money than God, but I spend it like it's air. And he says, All I want to do is get out and open a flower shop. And I don't know how. Yeah. Because I've gotten myself locked into this personal burn, to this hamster wheel, so on and so forth. And outwardly, people would say, wow, he's got he's got it all. Inwardly, he was suffering massively.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Something else I heard in that piece, and especially in contrast to the to the story of your friend you just told. When we talk about betting on people, we're often talking about, you know, how do you you make a decision for the team that you're leading that that goes against perhaps best business practices? We had a we had another guest who they made decisions about um separating from client existing clients for lack of values alignment in order to free their people up. But what you talked about there is making the decision to walk away from some clear objective business value for person your personal value, um, because you're betting on yourself. And it opened you up by making that hard decision, it opened you up to the freedom to to have so much more purpose-driven and greater impact uh in in what you are. Um can you talk to me a little bit about the fear you felt in that decision?

SPEAKER_00 33:57

I don't think I had any fear when I made the decision. And I had fear leaning up to it.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

That's okay. Yeah, there we are. Okay, that's the that's the better framing. Talk to me about that fear.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That that that fear was um huh. I'm trying, I'm trying to reflect on it. Yeah. There was all I can um in quickly in in this setting, all I can reflect upon is that yes, I had fear leading up to it, but it I I would argue this as well. Um that um I have such a phenomenal partner in my wife that um one helped and every day continues to to make sure I'm I at least have some semblance of intellectual humility. But I'm reflecting, yes, I had a fear, but she helped me very, very quickly. That's what that's why like she was an anchor there is to no, there's nothing to be, you know, afraid of here. You know, you got this, we got this, you know, you name it. Um and so that was it was a it was a quick transitory period in that respect. And then thereafter, it was um it was uh more than anything, frickin' cathartic. There was a lot of miserable periods and and weeks and months that weren't fearful, it was just miserable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and going back to you know, my prior team uh as well, like um I remember, you know, just team members who, because they were uh I saw them being shit on by others, that back on that cultural element, that cultural element feeds into everything. And if you're not supporting your team members, if you're not being there and for your people, and it's all about you, um, then you have no business being a leader. None. Leadership is a privilege, leadership is a responsibility, and it's back to the very beginning of this conversation that you are there to be a servant and a debtor to the people around you. And for those that think that that is not the case, then you're either uh don't call yourself a leader, um, you're an N of one, that in my mind you don't belong in a leadership position, you know, whatsoever. Um and that was the case on on this last example I gave as well, that I was thrilled to be finally you know free and like, okay, yeah, time to move on. And you know, this individual, no. You and uh, if anything is well, um, at the same time, um, you can still have empathy and feel sorry for people who are putting themselves up there and shitting on others.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Yep. Yeah. There's an important normalization that you shared uh in that. And there's a or there's a couple points of normalization that I want to emphasize. One, it's normal to have that fear building up to it. It's normal to have that feeling of misery. It's normal to have both things exist at once where the fear outweighs the misery for a while until it doesn't. The other really powerful normalization I heard in there was you didn't do it alone.

unknown 37:24

No.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

You didn't come to this alone. You're not just, you're not just some it's not a matter of pure willpower to stay principled. Your your wife was an anchor for you and a mirror, uh, and uh uh and whatever other physical metaphor we want to put in for for support to reflect back what was important to you and to have your back, that you could do that. And those are two things that I think um are all too often forgotten in leadership, and I think are often especially easy to forget for folks who look like us, um because uh the the toxic expectations around doing it alone and never feeling fear, fear is weakness, uh lead to that trapped feeling, which then comes back around and destroys other people and destroys organizations. And so thank you for walking through that.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

You you touched on something really specific. Doing it alone. And one, we're never alone. And even if we're doing something when we are alone, um, you know, the example I would say for myself is you know, personally, I climb mountains, right? I get out in the outdoors, and I'm usually doing those things alone and and like hammering myself as much as I can. But there is always somebody else with me mentally. Yeah. Yeah. And uh pushing me, encouraging me, so on and so forth. Um, and whether it's my kids, whether it's my my partner, whether it is, you know, others in life. And so this fallacy of of the rugged individualism, it's it's just that.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

It's a fallacy. All right.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Normally we have a third, uh, a third story. I'm not letting you off the hook for it, uh, but I am gonna put one additional condition on this. I want to hear a story that you love telling around leadership decision. Uh, but this one has to be one that you can actually you can actually say someone's name or as or a situation about. And I know that's hard. I'm realizing I asked an investor and so on with all those other things that you do, which is gonna have a whole lot of uh protections on there. But let's tell let's hear a favorite story you have uh where you can brag about yourself or someone else.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Um I I I hate I hate doing any of the the bragging.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Um make it about something you learned then.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

I'll I'll I'll tell one, and this is about people, okay? Um and so I don't know if it's gonna be a leadership, but it's gonna be about betting on people. Okay. And um we did an experiment in uh 2019 during the first Trump administration. And and and I'll I'll give two quick stories here. So you just jog my my brain here. It was an experiment where the local district attorney had multiple criminal cases on his docket between Trump supporters and non-Trump supporters. And we said rather than treat these as typical criminal cases, these are just emblematic of society. And we got the defendants and victims together, um, did it at a neutral physical location at the local fairgrounds. A friend of mine is a clinical psychologist in New York came out, and the format was we called it the decency project because everyone had to take a decency pledge. Um, and um uh I kicked it off with, hey, we're not there to agree. Um, we're here to disagree, but treat each other with decency. And we had representatives of the local uh constituencies from law enforcement to clergy to politicians to the Billipot community to the tribes to the local militia. And um the DA presented the one-minute facts of each case. And then um the friend of mine who's a psychologist gave each defendant and victim 20 minutes to tell their life story and who they were. And the power of every one of those individuals, whether you agreed or disagreed, yeah, that came out of that, where one, this acknowledgement of people just wanting to be heard, but in that process of being heard and telling their stories where they came together. You know, the first case, first criminal case was a violent altercation, guns drawn between Trump supporter and non-Trump supporter. And at the end of it, one of them had lost a job. The other one started helping them find a new job. Um, those examples of believing in people, when you can sit down and hear their stories of their lives, and um that was so very powerful and so optimistic that wow, we're all genuinely looking for the same thing. The other one, which I want to uh I'll highlight, um, we did a citizen assembly up here that you're familiar with, um, up here in Central Oregon. And um a dear friend of mine, Josh Burgess, um I brought on board to lead it up. And Josh is a 25-year uh veteran Air Force Special Operations, the State Department. And um for folks who want to learn more about citizen assembly, I'm sure you know Keegan will throw a link in here. So I'll skip over that. But Josh opened up the assembly, and he said um, and the assembly was made up of random citizens, everyday citizens that were statistically representative of the community um uh of about 60 folks in total, rough and tough, I want to say. Um and he uh opened it up, he said, you know, he said, whenever I was over in Iraq and Afghanistan and came back, I was always thanked for my service. And I always felt it was disingenuous because um others were not being thanked for their service, whether from the State Department or the intelligence community or NGOs or the press. And he said to this group of citizens and community members He said, I want to thank every single one of you for. your service because what you're doing here is so very important for this community and for us all. And you can't you you couldn't have asked for or found a better person than Josh and how he framed things and how he set the stage for that group and the work that they had to do. And as it's a intellectual humility it's a self-awareness it's a selflessness where he and everyone bet on on those community members and thanked them. And and back to the very beginning of this conversation the first responsibility of the leaders to find reality the last is to say thank you.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Josh you know set a he exemplified that and um so that's that's one of the the um best moments that I've at least certainly in recent years.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

I want to one I've known Josh for a couple years through you as well and uh yeah I can't I can't say enough about his presence and insight and and how just how he thinks about and works and his commitment to those those principles and the and the people. I loved your decency project story because it also it you tied a bow on a couple of other things and and related back to earlier conversations but this one also really emphasizes the everyone's trying to do the right thing principle. That's that in practice. Oftentimes when I talk about it the leader has to work on okay trying to imagine or trying to suss out what's going on in someone else's life that those containers for each party to share their life to tell their story in 20 minutes is exactly that. It's what's it's about understanding. It's about understanding the nuance perspective and the outcome in that kind of not just a a leader's responsible for consequences for someone in their organization, but uh a grieved individual uh affected individuals from from altercations with each other finding that commonality that's so so powerful. Thank you Matt for these these these this conversation and these stories we've we've covered a lot uh of the through lines throughout it um we're gonna jump over to the lightning round here shortly any any other thoughts in general uh about what we were like anything has anything else come up on reflection from from what we've been talking about the last half hour?

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Oh a lot of things but more than anything Keegan thanks and and I know Molly's out there so thank you Molly surely uh all right we're gonna jump over to the lightning round because uh we like to go really deep on uh on bet on people but we don't uh want to leave everyone in a uh openly vulnerable tra uh traumatized uh uh possibly traumatized place so first up what was your what was your first job way before you were making uh cruel decisions at interviews and uh and meeting times my first job was picking strawberries uh and uh I also was raising pigs so uh that was the first first jobs yeah awesome uh we talked a little bit about that intellectual humility but what was one other leadership skill maybe more specific skill that you wish you'd learned earlier uh I think the the one that I wish I learned earlier was that uh everyone shits the same way in life and nobody looks good doing it and I say that in a crass way but I always had this perspective that oh if you were like at this level of the organization and you were this person and or this board member or this kind of thing and it's I use that crass analogy I tell my boys that I said look I don't care what somebody's title is what their their status is their income so on and so forth has nothing to do with what your value or worth as a human being is yep love it. Uh similar vein different topic what's the biggest myth about leadership uh that you want to see busted um I think it's it's twofold one you're again you're there to to serve others not to have others serve you uh that's number one and number two um it can be really frickin' lonely and it is not something like I know a lot of people like I want to be CEO I want to be in this role um I don't like I want to be like you if you're signing up for that be prepared to be shoveling a lot of shit.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

What's the worst professional advice you'd ever received uh the worst professional advice um the worst professional advice was I early on and again was lucky but also um chose this I punched out of the Bay Area uh early on and I had ever everyone I knew said I was and I moved to central Oregon this was back in early 01 and people said you're gonna crater your career it's like you're like you're done like um that was probably some of the worst perspective uh not necessarily advice but perspective people gave makes sense I won't take it personally still being in the Bay Area all right let's bring us home uh what's uh what's a media recommendation what are you watching or reading or listening to uh but the catch is it cannot be about leadership or business.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Uh the pit's awesome loving that uh yeah you're talking to a couple of major pit fans uh here I'm big into lots of reruns um uh I watch mash reruns consistently I think there's so many life lessons in in mash um Ted Lasso as always I can't wait for the new season the new game of thrones as far as reading um certainly I would encourage everyone the constitution of knowledge um um uh the tech coup um uh those are a couple that come to mind in in this respect uh so yeah awesome love it all right uh thank you Matt for everyone uh Matt Abrams as a reminder is a co-founder operator investor advisor and board member who now is a uh leader of One Billion for Trust uh which is a movement to fund solutions that strengthen trust and information in each other and in critical institutions uh we implied it earlier but I'm I'm proud to be on the extended team of advisors for one billion for trust as well. Uh it's uh it's just I'm I'm really looking forward to what the impact that we have there in that team. Uh we will have all of the various things that you say uh here linked in the show notes but Matt where can people find you where do you want people to look uh you can LinkedIn is the best place where people can find me.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

How's that?

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Perfect. Start on LinkedIn. Um where can people get that hat?

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Ah uh leaveitbetterproject dot com. There we go. Excellent. And if you and if you and if you come to bend I'll sit down and and have ice cream with you.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Free ice cream it'll it'll depend. For you yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Okay all right still a small business owner in 2026 good um as always follow the like and subscribe to Bet on People on Apple Podcasts Spotify and YouTube uh and I mentioned it uh a little bit here you're gonna hear more from us but if you'd like to hear more about our leadership principles at Utah visit uh uda.io slash executive coaching. Uh as always I'm Keegan Evans and this is Bet on People.