Bet on People

Bet on People with Joe Bogdan

• Keegan Evans • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this episode of the Bet on People, Keegan Evans, CEO and Executive Coach at Euda, hosts Joseph (Joe) Bogdan, Human Resources Business Partner at JLL, a seasoned leadership educator, and an Air Force veteran. They discuss the importance of human-centered leadership and the continuous pursuit of self-mastery. Joseph shares his leadership philosophy, which focuses on developing world-class coaching trees and prioritizing the growth of individuals within organizations. They also explore how to align personal and professional goals, emphasizing that leadership is about coaching and serving others, rather than just mentoring.

Key Takeaways:

  1. Leadership Is About Growth: Joseph highlights the importance of continuous self-improvement, both as a leader and as an individual. Leadership is not just about guiding others, but also about personal self-mastery.
  2. Developing Leadership Trees: Joseph emphasizes the concept of building coaching trees, where the legacy of a leader is defined by how well they nurture and develop other leaders, rather than by their own individual accomplishments.
  3. Balancing Work and Life: The conversation delves into the sacrifices made in leadership, reflecting on personal experiences in both the military and corporate settings. The importance of setting boundaries and balancing work with personal life for sustainable leadership is explored.
  4. Value of Sacrifice: Leadership often requires personal sacrifices for the greater good, and while these sacrifices can be challenging, the long-term benefits usually outweigh the costs.
  5. Leadership Isn’t Glamorous: True leadership involves taking on tough, unglamorous roles and making hard choices for the benefit of the team, rather than seeking accolades or recognition.

Episode Timestamps:

[00:00:00] – Introduction to Leadership Philosophy: Joseph discusses the critical role of leadership in any service industry and how it’s about continuously growing to pour into others.

[00:03:19] – World-Class Coaching Trees: Joseph explains his view on leadership as developing leaders who can coach others to success, focusing on creating long-term impact.

[00:05:16] – What Doesn’t Work in Leadership Development: Joseph talks about the mistakes leaders often make by trying to force their own methods onto others.

[00:08:13] – Self-Mastery and Leadership: How self-leadership, emotional intelligence, and self-awareness are foundational to effective leadership.

[00:10:35] – Learning from the Past: Reflecting on leadership and life choices and realizing the importance of prioritizing family and personal well-being.


[00:15:16] – The Cost of Leadership: Joseph reflects on his own sacrifices, including time away from family, during his career, and how they impacted his personal life.

[00:19:50] – Finding the Balance: The challenge of balancing personal sacrifice and leadership obligations while maintaining health and relationships.

[00:32:18] – Joseph’s Favorite Leadership Story: A reflection on how leadership is more about personal growth and less about achieving external markers of success.

[00:33:10] – The Power of Both-And Thinking: Joseph discusses how both accountability and compassion can coexist, challenging the idea of leadership being an either/or proposition

[00:46:35] – Final Thoughts: Joseph wraps up the conversation by emphasizing the continuous journey of leadership and the importance of leading from both the head and the heart.


🔗Connect with Guest Joseph (Joe) Bogdan:

👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jybogdan/

👉 To get a copy of Joe’s  book, or to get in touch directly, visit his official website: https://waypointbetter.com/ 

🔗Connect with JLL:

👉 Website: https://www.jll.com/en-us/

👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/jll/

🔗Connect with Host Keegan Evans:

👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keeganevans/

🔗 More from Euda:

👉 Website: https://www.euda.io/

👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/euda-io/

🔗 Follow the Podcast on:

👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bet-on-people/id1882863281

👉 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HgXTMbgkDsmuqzUiDGcXc

👉 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Euda-io

SPEAKER_02

When you're in a service industry of any type, and I think leadership is one of the most important services that we can do. You have an ethical responsibility to continue to grow, so you can continue to pour into others. But I think to get there to be effective, we really need to.

SPEAKER_00

Meet Joseph Bogdan, human resources business partner at JLL, host of the Waypoint Better Podcast, a strategic HR visionary, Air Force veteran, and leadership educator. He's also the author of Better Has No Finish Line. Joe specializes in human-centered leadership that transforms organizations by connecting heads to hearts.

SPEAKER_01

You use the phrase they're working with coaching trees. Can you expand on what that is?

SPEAKER_02

My leadership philosophy really surrounds this idea of developing world championship winning coaching trees. Why I frame it that way is I think that in the end, my legacy will be more about the other leaders I've helped pour into for them to be effective in winning their own championships. A lot of times we lean too hard on the mentorship piece and maybe not enough on the coaching piece. You're not always going to be there to mentor them. So, you know, how do you coach them to help them get to their solutions as well?

SPEAKER_01

You spent your career in the military, in HR, in your own CLO work, helping people become better leaders. What does better actually mean to you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01

You know, when I think of better as just on people, a podcast where we explore the decisions behind human-centered leadership and why betting on people isn't just good for people, it's smart business. I'm Keegan Evans, executive coach and founder of UTA. My guest today is Joe Bogdan, a leadership educator, Air Force veteran with over two decades of service, and the author of Better Has No Finish Line: Waypoints on the Life Lifelong Pursuit of Self-Mastery and Leadership, and host of the Waypoint Better podcast. Joe serves as chief learning officer for connecting heads to hearts, helping organizations develop leaders who align what they know with how they show up, and is a strategic HR business partner at a Fortune 200 company. Joe, thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_02

Keegan, thank you so much for having me. Uh, I've been really looking forward to this and uh listen to uh the the first episode you already released with a colleague of mine, a friend uh Barrett. And yeah, loving what you're doing. It sounded great.

SPEAKER_01

I appreciate it so much. And yeah, Barrett, uh Barrett is uh a great connection through for for both of us through this, and and really happy to have made the connection and and dive into this conversation. So let's let's not waste any time. Um, you spent your career in the military, in HR, in your own CLO work, helping people become better leaders. What does better actually mean to you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a great question. And honestly, I don't think anybody's ever asked that question before. So uh kudos to you. Uh you know, when I think of better, it's just it's the constant pursuit of self-mastery. And when I think of, you know, trying to master this idea of leadership, it goes through self-mastery, in my opinion, you know, to be effective. So my leadership philosophy really surrounds this idea of developing world championship winning coaching trees. And my thought is better is it's really a state of mind for me, is always seeking that level, you know, balancing that idea of contentment, but always seeking uh improving your position. I guess I'll say that.

SPEAKER_01

You used the phrase there world uh world-class coaching trees. Yes. Can you expand on uh what that is? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And you know, I know you and I both were in the military. So it, you know, like these sports analogies will never end when you relate sports and uh in the military. And um, I'm a big sports fan. So I think of these coaches that were the most effective leaders. A lot of times people look at them as the ones that um that have the most rings, the most Super Bowl rings, the most trophies. But I tend to look at it from a different perspective. I look at it from a place of what does our coaching tree look like? And how successful were those people? And I think that's more relatable in what I consider more of an infinite game versus that finite game of a sport, you know, like seasons and all those things. It's like we're when when we're in leadership and true leadership in organizations, the end, you know, I mean, it never ends, right? Like you're you're continuously growing um the people around you, you're trying to grow your business. So when I think of these coaching trees, why why I frame it that way is for I think that in the end, my legacy will be more about the other leaders I've helped pour into for them to be effective in winning their own championships, you know, in the years to come. If I'm the one that ends it, you know, uh I'm the one, the only one that won any championships. And I have a bunch of people that, you know, I was privileged to lead, but then they don't they're not really successful. Um, I feel like I've failed, you know. So um, that's where that philosophy comes from.

SPEAKER_01

I'm a big believer in organizational culture driving effectiveness, but there's also not a linear bad to good uh definition of culture. It's about fitting personality and finding that common growth and common goals. When you talk about different what your coaching tree looks like, do you have any general better practices of healthy versus unhealthy? Not necessarily another, I actually I asked the premise of the question, what's better look like? But I'm gonna say not what's better, but what's what what what works, what doesn't when you talk about coaching trees.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think that one of the things that doesn't work well, and um I've seen it done so often, is that you try to develop your coaching tree to the way that you would coach. And I think that, you know, there's goodness in helping other leaders, you know, by giving them perspectives, maybe, you know, letting them know what you've tried that didn't work. But there's an adage of like, you know, good leaders don't teach people what to think, but how to think, you know, and not necessarily like them, right? So I think that um I've seen so many that that create this learning path or this development path for the people that they're growing, and it aligns only with how they were developed and they were grown or what was successful for them. And they don't spend enough time asking the the people that they're actually leading and talking to is like, what's your white picket fence look like? You know, mine might be an acre and a bunch of land in that beautiful house, but yours might be, you know, a loft in the city. And a lot of times I found that um the more effective leaders when they're developing that coaching tree is that they they strike this perfect balance of, hey, this is me instilling some of my wisdom, but here's also some coaching to help you figure out what's right for you, you know, and what winning looks like for you.

SPEAKER_01

I really like that, being sure that the and it ties in directly with what uh I certainly experienced as better leadership in the military. And I I think some of our conversations here this same bit. Servant leadership is about reflecting it's about the people you're leading. And whether it's coaching, whether it's leading and with the coaching mindset or uh or the coaching tree framework that you're talking about, just one-way communication of expertise is not solving the problem. Uh it's about bringing out more.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that, you know, that we have a lot of different tools as leaders that we grow, whether that's intentionally or just through experience and exposure. But um, you know, a lot of times we lean too hard on the mentorship piece and maybe not enough on the coaching piece, which they're two different things, right? And it's like mentorship, I'm just constantly telling you what to do. But it's like, hey, sometimes you just need to, especially when you talk about succession planning for the future. It's like you don't want to, you're not always gonna be there to mentor them. So, you know, how do you coach them to help them get to their solutions as well?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. We're gonna get into the format, the normal format of Bet on People with some some key decisions, but I wanted to talk really quickly. We've got your book and Better Has No Finish Line. I talked about it in the intro. Waypoints on the lifelong pursuit of self-mastery and leadership. And I th before we dive into your the the decisions we're gonna talk about, I wanted to uh tease out a little more from the use of self-mastery in there. What have you found around leadership and continuing to build betterness for the self that has that has really shown up?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I personally believe that self-leadership is is vital as a first step before you're leading other people, right? And and we can go from a very tactical level of like, you know, we talk about emotional intelligence, you know, self-awareness, self-management comes before the whole social awareness, you know, and then and the relationship management. And when I look at that certain that that whole model, I look at it and I'm like, that's leadership. You know, that the whole model is leadership. I mean, like, what is leadership if it's not managing relationships, you know? So uh, but I think to get there to be effective, you know, we really need to dive deep and do some of that deep, deep work on ourselves. But there's a there's an interesting paradox there because that work never ends, also. So, so my uh the title of my books Better Has No Finish Line is because that's my life mantra. I really believe that, you know, I sometimes say, Man, I was a dummy 20 years ago, I was a dummy 10 years ago, hey, five years ago, I wasn't really that bright either. And you know, and one of my goals I share in the um in the end of the book is that I hope in five years I can look back and be like, man, what a dummy, you know, because I can obviously say that I've evolved, you know, and I come continuously growing. Uh, and I really believe that, you know, when you're in a service industry of any type, and I think leadership is one of the most important, if not the most important service that we can do, uh, you have an ethical responsibility to continue to grow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you can continue to pour into others. So um, that's really where this idea of of better, of continuously growing and improvement, um, and the whole better has no finish line. Uh my my podcast is called Waypoint Better because I feel like every waypoint that we go through, whether that's a failure or a victory or anything in between, is just another waypoint to the next better version of you. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

So I love it. Let's dive into the uh the decision points that we're gonna talk about. And uh the real neat thing about uh this episode is we're actually when we talk about betting on people, we often talk about that leadership of other people. You've got a great career that involves leading other people, but we're gonna we're gonna talk about some decision points where you're the people is you and betting on your betting on yourself, which I think is directly supported in everything that you just talked about around the self-leadership, self-mastery in service of others. So I would love to hear, as we always kick off, where's an example from your past there where you made a decision that seemed to deprioritize the people versus the system?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So in this time, you know, when and since the people is me, you know, when I think about it, how many times I deprioritize myself, you know, coming from the professional arms, it's part of the culture to do that. You know, it's an expectation. So I could say throughout my career, there are so many times, whether that was maybe um taking on a deployment while I had something important going on at home. And this happens to service members all the time. It could even be the first baby they're gonna have, you know, and then they have to deploy out. Um, I remember spending time in Christmas in a hooch somewhere, like by myself, you know, what or scroll in when there was social media scrolling too and seeing everybody in their uh Christmas pajama photos together as a family, you know. I mean, those those type of moments.

SPEAKER_01

Um I went to flight school with a guy who uh uh he was prior enlisted and he had his fourth kid uh was born while he was in flight school. That was the first kid he'd been home for after the birth.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's you know, and that's not uncommon, right?

SPEAKER_01

That's not very yeah, it was normal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. And then even for folks that are single, I mean, like you're you're gone a lot, and it's hard to even start a relationship or a life, you know. So um, yeah, it could be really challenging. But yeah, throughout my military career, I could say, you know, whether it was a remote tour that came out of nowhere, my last five years in the military, I moved four times. Um, so it was really hard to establish routes anywhere. But even in the in the smaller things, like I remember uh my unit needed somebody. It was funny, like Keegan, this is this is the wildest thing. It was the secretary of our uh of our unit decided to move on, and I was leading a team of 20 technicians, and they needed someone to come up. And I remember the commander said, Joe, I really need an exec. And I was like, I I know you're really trying to polish this up, but we know it's a secretary position, right? And then and um I was like, all right. I mean, like, you know, like I've never been the one to say I don't do windows. So I'm like, all right, I mean, if that's where you need me to go, that's where I go. So um, there's been plenty of opportunities where I was like, that's not what I wanted to do. Um, but you know, for the better of the team, uh, I would take the bunt, you know, I would I would hit sacrifice fly. And I I felt like it was a measure of my own character to be able to take that and do that effectively. And it was always challenging myself to do those things and how to react right. Most recently, probably in my in my corporate environment, there was an opportunity for a position that would have a significant raise. Um, it would be a promotion. But on the team that I'm on right now, we're actually making some significant improvements in what we're doing. Um, we're really advancing our employee engagement and we're doing a quite a few other big, big projects. And I'm working with some key stakeholders. And I looked at it and I was like, you know, it might be nice to go, you know, the grass isn't always greener. It might be good to go over there, but you know, the team needs me here right now. And, you know, I don't have desperate energy right now needing uh a promotion or or a raise right now. So um I'm in a good place where I can be patient and see how this goes. And I'm not gonna, you know, continue to pursue that opportunity and I'll stay where I'm at. And um, and you know, something that I when I think back, every time I've sacrificed myself for the organization, well, I wouldn't say every time, but most of the time, um, I I've gotten tenfold back, you know, in some way, shape, or form. I feel like I've grown from that opportunity or something happened where it was uh impactful down the road.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. One thing I'll that jumped out at me is here by by structuring this a little bit in the way of like, okay, what were the sacrifices you personally took for the organization? We could also supplant like the people that you were leading. There there seems to be in each of those examples people who you felt responsible for or felt loyalty for, and the organization is a bigger part of yourself, that you were taking the personal hit uh and seeing the benefit downstream because the organization itself was doing was doing better and and it was making the right uh making the right call for the people there. So as we always come to the end of uh recognizing that it's often neither one or the other in the nuance. But you you you've launched us into that right right away with these with these great examples. Was there ever a time where you mentioned most of the time, or you corrected yourself that most of the time, what where's the time that it didn't really uh pan out where it was all downside for you?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I I would have to say, you know, just being vulnerable here, there was times where you sacrificed so much, you know, like where anybody may sacrifice so much and then they end up on the other side of whatever that is, and then they might be a little bit resentful or regretful, right? And it sounds crazy, but I remember when I was um probably in my 30s, I was I was going pretty hard. I was a hard charger, um rolling up the enlisted ranks. And you know, an enlisted person's goal almost always is E9, if they're gonna stay in, right? I mean, they want to be an E9. And that was my goal since I was a E2, E3, right? I wanted to be an E9. And um I worked hard towards it. I definitely followed the rubric of checking the block of all the things I needed to do. I tried to do it with um with character throughout the whole process. But a lot of it was taking every assignment that came up, that you know, trying to be a yes man in a lot of ways, spending 60-hour work weeks pretty often, um, taking that remote tour that nobody wants and and really grinding through those things. And that's why I think there's such an overlap of like, okay, is that me sacrificing myself for the thing, or is that also me wanting to achieve that thing so much that I'm also sacrificing a lot of my own health, my own relationships to get that thing right? And in the end, the organization gets what they need as well. Yep. But um, at one point, I had a promotion for E9, which, you know, should have been the greatest thing ever for me. I was 20 pounds overweight. I was drinking way too much during that time to deal with the stress of work and um and heading towards a divorce. Yeah. And all of this was going on. And I think back, I was like, because the person I am, I look back and I'm like, everything happens for a reason. Um I can grow from all of that. But at the same time, did it have to be so rocky to get there? You know? Yeah. That that's the question that sometimes I ask myself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Uh thank you for being vulnerable about the that point. And that and with it being coming up on the E9 promotion, that's later in your career too, to to have driven towards and achieving that pinnacle rank and pinnacle goal, but questioning pieces around it. Something that I I'd love to hear is as you're as as you're dialing in the balance of I'm giving sacrifice, were there any earlier signs that you used as kind of a measure of I'm overcorrecting on sacrifice, I'm over-indexing on sacrifice rather, and I need to adjust back? Or was that a continuous journey and then you had the really maybe powerful uh reflection experience for the E9 point?

SPEAKER_02

You know, that's a great question. I think that there was plenty of um indicators on the way there. And I remember even as a young uh E6, I was overseeing 20 people, 20-something person work group. And then I I ended up in that secretary gig. You know, of course they called me an exec, but it was a secretary, right? So uh revisiting that again. But um I remember when I had that opportunity to be in that position. This is where I kind of go back to the whole thoughts of like, well, even though I I went kicking and screaming, um, maybe not on the outside, I'm a yes, sir, keep moving, right? But inside I was like, oh, I can't believe I'm a secretary, right? Doing this. I remember seeing a commander that was somebody who I truly look up to and admired. And this guy, his truck would be at the office all night. And he would be there working till 10, 11 o'clock at night sometimes. And it was just a regular thing. He might go home to, you know, have some dinner and then come back. And um, this was before we had a lot of the VPN systems and all those opportunities for people to just work at home. But so you you see his truck there. And I was like, man, I didn't think about the sacrifice he was making. I just thought I wanted to be like him, you know. So I was I was driving as well. And I took as a badge of honor to send an email at 10 o'clock at night. You know what I mean? Because it's like, cool, like that means they know that I'm working too, you know, and it's just a hustle culture. But he moved on, just like you know, commanders do, and uh, a new a new major came in, and she couldn't do that because she just had a baby. So she had to have a little bit more of that balance and she really delegated really well and powered others really well. And, you know, shockingly, the the unit didn't fall apart, right? We still hit all of our KPIs, we had all of the things that we needed to do, right? And yeah, I was like, oh, there's another way, you know, and I think that was one of the first times I witnessed something like that. You know, because I grew up in a work hard, work hard, and just keep working harder, you know, and good things are gonna happen. And um, it was the first time I witnessed, you know, just this other way. Now I kept on doing what I was doing, but I think, you know, I think back on it to the point where it had left such an impression that I still think about today and I talk about it, you know. So um, yeah, I think that those are, you know, those like I could see little things like that where you can look backwards and connect those dots, you know, looking backwards, of course, and then think, oh yeah, that was probably one of those first indicators because I've I thought about it so much that I really started reflecting on what this really should look like in the long term.

SPEAKER_01

Is it fair to say you were seeing the artifacts of behavior, the stay late, the emails at 10 o'clock, uh, and you had a lot of respect for this commander, but you were associating those as one one-to-one causal, whereas the artifacts and behaviors were not necessarily the surface level things were not necessarily the root cause of leadership integrity and respect.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, especially at an impressionable age, you tend to see more of the that, you know, you tend to assign, you know, the the the conditions to whatever the behaviors you're actually seeing. Sure.

SPEAKER_01

You know, sure. So you've had vulnerable realization as you've achieved uh E9 uh and you decide to retire. Uh let's move into the concept of where you how did you apply that? Did is this where you started thinking about how you were going to prioritize the people of you?

SPEAKER_02

Now I would say that, you know, that that there's always the balance that you have through that. But, you know, at the time I decided to retire. A lot of it was because of, you know, needing to prioritize myself and my family. I saw the writing on the wall. My wife is also active duty Air Force still now. She'll be retiring this year. Um, but at the Time, I think you know, a lot of senior leaders. I was in the Pentagon and um I was overseeing all of workforce development cross to force um globally. And, you know, with that type of role, you have opportunities that are typically lined up for you after that, you know. Um, it might not be in a direct path to certain things, but you know, there's plans, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They've invested in you at that point. Right, right. At that point, they're not gonna just burn it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he has legs. He can he he has a lot of legs. We can do quite a few things, right? Um, and you know, I also saw the writing on the wall that my wife being also a senior enlisted person, that there's a good opportunity for us to not be able to be together, you know, we'd be geo-bashering. And I looked back on that whole idea of okay, that whole time where I made E9, and I was like, I'm not gonna do that again, right? I'm not gonna just like sacrifice myself and the relationships that are the most important to me just for whatever that carrot is on the other side, you know. And there's never an end to carrots. Like I discovered that, right? It's like there's hamster wheel and there's always a carrot on the other side. You don't notice how much of a hamster wheel it is until you step off. And so yeah, so I I just made that decision. I was like, you know, this side of 40, I'm not looking for another uh uh another failed marriage. I'm not looking to geo bachelor, you know, um, at this point. So, you know, my wife and I, um, we talked, we prayed on it and decided that it was time for me to go ahead and and and move on and see about different opportunity. And um, that that decision in itself was actually prioritizing us. But interesting enough, I know Keegan, I'm not sure if you might have experienced something similar, is when you've given, you know, a lot of time to a noble cause, you start feeling like, and also that thing has done so much for you because the Air Force served me very well. Also, it's almost like you feel this like obligation. Like there's this, like, there's obligation. And, you know, I had to have a hard talk on myself and said, hey, I did 24 years, I I paid my due. And um, it's time for me to go serve in a different capacity. But it was really challenging to make that decision.

SPEAKER_01

Did you have any uh mentors or or support outside that kind of helped helped clarify that decision for you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's interesting. Some of the people that you'd find to be the uh the quote unquote mentors, sometimes they uh almost make you feel bad about making the decision to leave, right? I mean, there's just gonna be that I don't care if you're in a military or you're in some business. I think that that's you're gonna have some of those because you know they invested in you or and they perceived that you owe them something back. But so one of my uh mentors that I really truly appreciated, um, he was actually one of the key factors in why I went to the the Pentagon. And he retired like three days after I got to the Pentagon. So I was like, thanks for bringing me here and then leaving. But but truly a man of character, um, truly an honorable person. And he had been, you know, retired probably the next time I saw him for maybe eight months at this point. And we had a conversation and he said, Hey, what do you want to do whenever it is that you transition? And I said, I love to advise leaders, do some consulting, or um something in workforce development, you know, something that I'm passionate about. And he said, What job would be better on your Air Force resume when you separated than the one you're right now overseeing all of workforce development for the Air Force?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I looked at him and he was like, You're gonna move on from here, and you're probably gonna be a command chief master sergeant somewhere, or you're gonna go to these other level roles that the civilian environment will never understand what the heck that is.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

But this role, you know, um, it's gonna mean something. And he said, I'm not telling you what to do, but if that's what your goal is, you should really consider that. And, you know, that stuck with me. It really did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That is blindingly excellent advice because it's it is not just a moral support and guidance, but it is a very precise connection of intention and picking your spot. Because we all we all have to leave sometimes. Sometimes we don't get choice in it, sometimes we we don't. But when recognizing the opportunity for that intersection of choice ideal and and and the and the peak jumping offline is wonderful. I asked that question because I had like you said, I struggled with to stay in. I got I left active duty after eight years uh after my original aviation commitment. And I struggled very deeply with the sense of loyalty, the sense of continued service, the sense of people being in there, also an overwhelming mentality of uh outside the the Marine Corps is nice and warm and cozy and we'll take care of you. Outside, everyone is homeless and unemployed. And I I intellectually overcame that last part. But I struggled with the I want to be a good Marine, what what do I do with that? And I I had the benefit of an amazing first CO who uh was still in and he was still gonna stay in for much longer after I left. And very simply, he said to me, Keegan, the Marines need good Marines on the outside just as much as we need them on the inside. Uh and that helped just snap it in for me on to follow, follow what was really important to me and when that it was time for me to move, move on.

SPEAKER_02

So and you don't even realize how good that advice is until you're actually out and you realize, man, that is so true. You know, I mean, like the level of leadership, training, tenacity, perseverance, you know, and all those traits and attributes that you know the military instilled in me when I, you know, when I'm working in the um corporate environment, you know, um, there's times where it seems like I'm walking on water and I just feel like I'm doing my job, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Have there been examples in the in the life after uh uh retirement in your roles where you've proven out the theory of prioritizing people?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I I think that, you know, I am thriving. I really feel, you know, I think there's a level of contentment and happiness both, you know, and um and I feel like I'm thriving. I I feel valued in what I'm doing, but I'm also, you know, after 5 p.m., if somebody's not dying, don't call me, you know. Uh you know, in the morning I'm able to uh prioritize, you know, my my scripture, my um, my little some other readings I might do in the morning, and then I get some fitness in and um get to work on, you know, things that I just find really meaningful, like my podcast or, you know, in the past year I was reading writing my book, but other things, even doing some consulting work on the side. And it's really just gave me this life of fulfillment of, you know, the this true like, I don't it might be balance, it might be harmony. I know we chimed on a little bit about that before I uh we we hit record, but there's this feeling of just contentment, you know, it really is just truly content, um, feeling blessed. And it is because yeah, setting boundaries, even with people that I found to be some of my best friends, you know, they're they might be frustrated because they're trying to call me whenever to get advice about something that I'm not even in anymore, right? Yeah. Uh but you know, I'll tell them, hey, let's schedule a call. And you know, they might get frustrated because they used to just be able to get me whenever they called. And I'm like, no, I'm having dinner with my family or I'm doing this. And, you know, so I think like just pruning some of the access away and really like focusing on what the most important things and really being aligned. I Keegan, I'll I'll tell you the truth when I look back on it, and I see so many people do this. Oh, family is my most important thing, you know, like or or whatever it is. You name these things, but you spend all your time not with that thing that you value. Your behaviors do not align. You have a big say do gap of this is what I say and this is what I do. And I think part of the reason why I feel so content is because I'm in alignment. Yeah. I feel like I can actually live to what I say is important to me and I can express that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That resonates with me when um and actually ties into what you said at the beginning about always trying to be better and looking back 20 or 10 years ago, and that guy was an idiot. I thought I was pretty self-aware and pretty uh a man of integrity as I left active duty and and I was in my early, early 30s at that point. And I uh through a couple of uh paths, I got over my stigma against therapy and I got in with a therapist focusing on grief. My father had been diagnosed with cancer at that point. I thought there was some pretty specific things there. And my therapist really helped me grasp and come to terms with the disintegrity between how I was behaving and how I was justifying those behaviors, and how sorry, the so the external behaviors and my internal perception and justification of those behaviors. And moving that from disintegrity to integrity was pivotal in really leveling up how how I could keep searching for that balance. Uh, I was gonna be hard blocked uh until I did that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is like this idea of like I mean, there's that cognitive dissonance of like, you know, yeah. And and you know, you don't really notice it, uh especially when you're in a culture that almost like and and by no means am I um trying to speak ill of any of the services. You know, we we have to do what we need to do to serve in that capacity and be effective. But I think that at times, and this can be any organization that you're in, that the values that are on the bumper stickers aren't always the ones that that are actually espoused by the or promoted, you know, or are truly supported within that um within that organization. And when you realize that yours don't necessarily align that same way and you feel like the culture is driving you to live in that dissonance, I think that it's time to at least take a look, you know, really reflect on it. And I've told people is that, hey, if you're saying family is your value, your number one value, but you're not spending any time with your family, I'm not saying, you know, this is not a uh, you know, a value judgment coming. I think that it's time for you to consider whether or not that's actually something you value, or if you're in a culture that won't allow you to live to your values. Yep. Right. I think it's something that's really important to like just just take a note of.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. All right. We've covered uh we've covered some examples where you deprioritized people and yourself. We've covered some examples where you prioritize people. What's your favorite story to tell around decision making?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I I think that my favorite story is something that my thoughts have evolved so much in this, and it's probably, you know, when I think back to the five-year ago dummy, um, I don't think the five-year-ago dummy thought about this the same way, right? And I I don't know if I just had a revelation while I was writing my book. Because, you know, writing a book is kind of therapeutic in itself. It's really you're you're writing stuff and you're like, oh, you know, like I wasn't living up to this, what I thought was important or whatever else. And you're you're you're going through that and you're getting your words on paper. And I realized, you know, this is something that I share a lot more now. And I think it's one of my favorite things to share is that it's not either or, you know, it's not always either or. Sometimes it has to be, right? Because you have to sign up those boundaries because every every yes you say to something is unspoken no to something else. So you do need to sometimes have that either or. But a lot of times when it comes to the most important things in life, it's really and, you know, it's both and. And um, an example I will use for that would be, you know, compassion and accountability. I think we all know that they both should exist in the same place. But sometimes when we're actually faced with that judgment, uh, that that's that decision, um, it's like we have to lean one and we we're like binary people suddenly, you know, zeros and ones. And now we gotta either do this or do that. And it's like, no, you can do both. You know, life is paradoxical. And I find that I find your questions really intriguing because in reality, I feel like they're both true. And anybody who's been leading for any amount of time will know that there's going to be times where you will make sacrifices for the business organization. And there's gonna be times where you need to prioritize yourself or the people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And it's not either or, it's both and I used to get so pissed when I used to hear this cliche of um admission first people always. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, like I think I've quoted that on this show.

SPEAKER_02

I get so irritated. I'm like, whatever. Like, let's be honest. But you know, when it comes down to it, it's just it's just true, right? Whether or not, you know, which I do it's true. It's a symbiotic relationship between the organization and the people. If the people aren't there, the organization will not survive. And if the business doesn't exist, there's no people reason for the people to be there, right? So it's um as me as a HR business partner, I I live in that tension all the time with employees. Some of them feel more entitled that, like, hey, I mean, you guys say you prioritize people. I was like, yeah, but if you don't get your stuff together, you're not gonna have a job because we have a business to operate, you know, and living in that um both and. Um, so I think that, you know, the story that I share often is when people feel like they're in this binary situation, I found it really, really helpful to think both and it's true that the organization, you know, we're gonna have to sacrifice for the organization sometimes. But there's other times where I'm going to need that organization to give me some too.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And living in that tension between and having the discernment to know which side you need to lean on at any given moment, which comes with, you know, that wisdom comes with time and experience and exposure. So um that that's something that I think that, you know, it probably like landed on me in the last four or five years, or I was like, huh, yeah. It's something that I really need to consider. Because I used to love and just live in this whole idea of, you know, work-life harmony and all that stuff. Sometimes it is balance. You just have to like put a little bit more on this side, and sometimes you gotta put more on the other side.

SPEAKER_01

Something that can't just came to mind as you were uh talking about that the the false dichotomy and the paradox of accountability or compassion business or people. You don't always have to sacrifice in order to achieve. There are not unlike the example from the commander who would his truck was always there emailing at 10 p.m. The surface behavior of sacrifice is not the point. It's the underlying what is the underlying nuanced outcome that you're trying to get to, and focusing on that rather than the priority is to sacrifice because that's the right thing to do. The sacrifice is in service of the outcome, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think that you know, I love that you brought up, you know, that that false dichotomy because in reality, when you do one, a lot of times it bleeds into the other anyway without you even thinking about it. Yep. You know, um I sacrificed taking on roles I didn't want, but you know, those roles also helped me get promoted because they were roles that nobody else wanted because they were the hard ones.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So so you know, sometimes uh it's you we think it's the long way home, but it's actually the most direct route, you know. So that's why I've always been a true advocate of don't try to pick and choose your opportunities. You know, take the opportunities, even if they're not the sexy ones, because those usually are the ones that are most fruitful. And maybe it is a sacrifice from you for you at one point, but then it'll pay dividends later, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What uh has anything come up uh in ways that you didn't necessarily expect through this conversation? I like to uh I like to paint some through lines. We've done a lot of through line talk over the course of it, but I so I'm curious if there's a surprise that you found.

SPEAKER_02

You know, it's something that I just realized, well, just those last couple seconds of what you said, you know, and it's it's interesting how it kind of like loose back, right? This idea of the guy that was, you know, staying at till 10 o'clock on night, whatever. I mean, he's developing his coaching tree without even knowing it, right? And I was part of that coaching tree, you know, like looking at him like, oh man, that's that's the thing to do. But it kind of like loosed back to my first thought of that, you know, you're developing a world championship winning coaching tree. And you gotta, you gotta show people in ways of how to do it themselves. Some people have four kids at home in a family, they're not gonna be able to sacrifice. Doesn't mean that they're not, they're not gonna be effective leaders, you know. Um, and I think that, you know, using that coaching method more to develop that tree, it kind of like just fell full circle to me when we were talking, is that um that, you know, it just it really stamps even more of an approval on really finding out what drives people, um, what they're looking for, and then helping them get there and not necessarily in the same path that you would have took.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not gonna get anything better than that out of you on the uh as far as the closers. So let's let's close the main piece of conversation there. You ready for a little bit of our lightning round to uh take us out?

SPEAKER_02

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01

Uh Joe, what was your first job?

SPEAKER_02

My first job was at Wendy's. I started at the register, and then I made my way up to the fries, the grill, and then I started making sandwiches. And um, I was very proud of that. And one thing I'll just share, I know this is a lighting round, but that was one of the um opportunities I had to grow some humility, which I really needed. Um, I remember thinking I was just hot stuff, Keegan, at Wendy's. And I had a um a senior person who had been working there for a while, um, and she just came up to me and brought a uh cup of water to me. And she said, See this cup? And I said, Yeah. And she said, This is the job. And I said, Okay. And she put her finger in it and she said, See this finger? I said, Yeah. She said, That's you in the job. I said, Okay. She pulled her finger out of it and said, Does it look any different anymore that you're not there? And I was like, Man, like the lady is spitting wisdom in uh Wendy's, you know. Uh, but yeah, I'll always remember that conversation.

SPEAKER_01

That's a good one. Yeah. I I had a an early, it wasn't a first job, but I had an early job at a McDonald's. And my dirty secret is I actually think I like Wendy's fries better uh than McDonald's. I have deep nostalgia for McDonald's fries, but uh Wendy's fries were always fellow my favorites. I also learned a lot of lessons in humility, but this is your lightning edge round, not mine. So what's one leadership skill that you wish you'd learned earlier? We talked, man, it can't be one of the ones we've already talked about.

SPEAKER_02

You know, this was a tough one. What is a leadership skill? There were so many, so it's like really hard to narrow it down. Because yeah, I'm telling you what, like I could say generosity, because I really feel like generosity is a leadership skill, or at least an attribute, that I didn't have early enough. But I'm gonna go with curiosity. I'm gonna go with curiosity. And um, I would say the reason why I didn't have that earlier was when I do the self-mastery trip and I reflect back on it. Most people would say that I was arrogant uh when I was young. And in reality, I found that arrogance, there's a thin veneer between arrogance and low self-esteem. And what I think because I had low self-esteem, I put off this image of arrogance so it would make me feel better and people would think I'm confident. But it was a facade. And because of that facade, uh, I felt always that I needed to be right. And that killed the leadership skill of being curious to me. Yeah. Some people might argue that's not a skill. To me, I think it's whether it's a skill trait or attribute, I think it's one of the most important ones for a leader. Yeah, it can't live in a space where you want to be the one that knows everything and things like always right. And um, it took me many years before I got to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love that one. Uh Brene Brown in her book Atlas at the Heart. I got that, I got it behind me. Um talks, she uses the concept of near enemies uh a lot. And with if confidence and especially grounded confidence is the virtue, arrogance is the near enemy. But it's often masking that insecurity that you're talking about. So anyone who's paid any attention to Yuda knows that curiosity is you're speaking my language here. Um similarly, what's the biggest myth that you've heard about leadership?

SPEAKER_02

I think that a lot of times people feel like this leadership role is like they have this idea that it's like a pyramid where you're sitting at the top and in the leadership role and everybody else is there. And I know, you know, you I think that you know, there's a lot of culture shift to believe that servant leadership model, which, you know, isn't that isn't that new to actually anyway. But I think that a lot of times people don't realize that the cost of leadership. Um and people think that, you know, um, that leadership comes with glamour and sexiness and um and a and a huge paycheck. And it may come with some benefits like you know, a nice salary, but it never quite equates to the level of burden that comes with you uh with that leadership. And I think that, you know, that's something that people really need to understand is that that burden is why you're there, you know, and it's not always terrible, right? I'm not trying to paint it as a bad thing, it's very rewarding, but it but the burden is there, and that's the reason why we need a leader. I remember listening to Joseph Gordon Levitt, he's one of my favorite actors, yeah. And he said when he was growing up, he used to see um the director, because he was on Third Rock from the Sun.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so he used to see the director as a child lose their mind every time something didn't go right on the scene. And he would uh think he actually thought because you know, yeah, he's not been exposed to anything else is that must be how directors are supposed to operate. When things go wrong, they just start yelling and all this stuff. And um, when he actually became a director himself, he looked back and realized actually, the whole reason why the Director exists is when things go wrong. And, you know, I think that that's um that's that's a great way to kind of really just capture what my thoughts are on leadership and really um kind of goes away from that myth of, you know, it gets easier when you become a leader or you know, or that's glamorous. Uh it's really not.

SPEAKER_01

I'll have that. What's the worst professional advice you've ever received?

SPEAKER_02

Man, plenty of those as well. Um, but you know, one that I hear I I've heard often is that um that we need to always find a way to work smarter and not harder. And I'm just not a fan of that. And I get it um because yeah, we we want to find ways, smarter ways to do things. Yeah, but unfortunately, we humans are like, you know, we take things very literally, right? And it's like, no, actually, you kind of need to do both. Yeah. You gotta work smarter and harder. Yep. You know, so I just think that, you know, as a piece of leadership advice, uh, you know, that comes and that's just general advice. I would say that I'm just not a fan of it because I think that um it just puts off it puts off the wrong vibes for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, the uh human natural negativity bias is gonna emphasize the not on uh uh on that meme. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Some people need to work harder.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. All right, and finally, what's uh what are you watching, reading, listening to or playing uh that's not a leadership or business piece of media?

SPEAKER_02

Right now, I let's see, what am I digging into right now? I am um I listened to a lot of things at one time, so trying to narrow down the one that makes maybe the most sense I can you know speak and speak lucidly about. But um the one thing that I've really found really helpful for me is and I wouldn't say it's leadership, it's more business related.

SPEAKER_01

And we're going for we're going for not leadership business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We with a personal Joe.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, personal Joe, okay. Yeah, okay. So uh so something that I've been um I just finished reading not too long ago, and I can't wait to see the movie is Project Hail Mary. And you know, I I told um it's funny because my wife, she was always like opposed to fictional books because she's like, Oh, I was like, oh man, I mean, I told her, I was like, baby, like fictional books give you so much lessons in life, also. And Project Hail Mary, the book was just amazing. I can't wait to be let down by the movie because you know that always happens, right?

SPEAKER_01

But it often does, although I've heard some very positive, like it breaks the mold, is what I've heard. I haven't seen it yet. I'm excited too.

SPEAKER_02

I'm glad. Yeah. So that I mean, I did I just think that um, you know, I kind of share that as I'll I'll switch it up to some fiction books um that have and Project Hail Mary really isn't one of those books I probably would have picked up, you know. But I just thought because it was something that I would never pick up, probably. Um, I wanted to dive into it. And um, you know, it really brought a lot of joy to me. I I was like, I haven't had uh a page turner in a while, and that was that was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome. Yeah, that's one of my favorites as well. Looking forward to seeing the movie soon, too. All right, thank you for indulging me there. Uh for everyone, Joe Bogdan is a leadership educator and Air Force veteran who wrote Better Has No Finish Line and helps organizations develop leaders who lead from both the head and the heart. Joe, we'll have this linked in the show notes, but uh, where can people find you and what else do you want our listeners to check out?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn. Um, you should be able to find me on LinkedIn forward slash JY Bogden or just put Joe Bogdan in there and I should pop up. Uh the other uh thing, ways you can get in contact with me is visit my website, www.waypointbetter.com. And if you want to, it's a completely free site. I mean, I do I do have links to my book there, but and my podcast is linked there, all free. Um and it also is an opportunity if you sign up for my mailing list that you'll get a bunch of free leadership resources. One is uh my leadership philosophy navigator to help people um, you know, kind of walk through how to how to detect their own leadership philosophy. Also, there are some operational and tactical level tools to help you maybe be more effective at work, prioritize things, put things in the right, you know, buckets of prioritization, be more purposeful. And also there's um self-reflection assessment on there that's a self-inventory. So a lot of free resources that if you sign up, um you'll get like early access to my blogs and all those things. But um, that's the probably the best way and you can find my book on the on that website as well.

SPEAKER_01

Wonderful. And again, we'll have all that linked in the show notes uh for anyone who didn't have a pen and paper ready uh at that moment. And I know I just dated myself with that particular call out. Uh as always, please follow, like, and subscribe to Bet on People on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And if you want to learn more about how we at Uta think about leadership, visit uh uda.io slash executive coaching. I'm Keegan Evans, and we bet on people.