Bet on People
We talk to leaders and business owners about the stories behind their toughest decisions, and how a human-centered approach to these decisions isn’t just good for people, it’s smart business. Beyond celebrating wins, we explore the “why” behind their choices and how they have evolved as a leader.
Bet on People
Bet on People with Sue Olson
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In this episode of the Bet on People Podcast, Keegan Evans, CEO, Executive Coach and AI Consultant at Euda and Limited Partner at Beyond Earth Ventures, hosts Sue Olson, a transformational leader and Fractional CHRO at Red Thread Consulting. They discuss the principles of human-centered leadership and the strategies leaders can use to build trust, scale culture, and drive organizational growth. Sue shares her leadership philosophy, emphasizing fairness, transparency, and empathy while making tough business decisions. They also explore how to navigate leadership transitions, prioritize people during challenging times, and create systems that align organizational goals with the well-being and development of individuals.
Expect to Learn
- How to implement human-centered leadership in high-stakes, fast-moving organizations.
- The importance of trust, transparency, and alignment between leadership vision and organizational culture.
- Practical strategies for conducting layoffs and organizational changes with empathy and respect.
- How to scale internal communication, processes, and cross-functional collaboration in growing companies.
- Lessons from real-world leadership experiences, including early career formative moments and executive consulting insights.
Episode Timestamps:
[00:00:00] – Teaser
[00:01:40] – Introduction to Sue Olson and early career experiences shaping human-centered leaderships
[00:06:37] – Building trust and walking the talk as an HR leader
[00:15:33] – Prioritizing people over purely business outcomes
[00:19:06] – Aligning employer branding with company reality
[00:25:14] – Managing layoffs and reductions with empathy
[00:32:10] – Balancing emotional instinct with structured decision-making
[00:34:14] – Daily leadership check-in: treating people fairly and respectfully
[00:35:16] – Consulting and impact: restructuring and culture renovation
[00:39:29] – Leadership influence on collaboration and team alignment
[00:44:01] – Lightning-round: early jobs, leadership lessons, and myths
[00:46:05] – Media recommendations and mentorship insights
[00:48:34] – Closing thoughts and ways to connect with Sue
🔗Connect with Guest Sue Olson:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sueolson1/
👉 Email: slolsonhr@gmail.com
🔗Connect with Red Thread Consulting:
👉 Website: https://www.redthreadhr.com/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/sueolson1/
🔗Connect with Host Keegan Evans:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keeganevans/
🔗 More from Euda:
👉 Website: https://www.euda.io/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/euda-io/
🔗 Follow the Podcast on:
👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bet-on-people/id1882863281
👉 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HgXTMbgkDsmuqzUiDGcXc
👉 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Euda-io
What your favorite decision story is. And I understand it's something around learning to ask yourself a daily question about how you treated people.
SPEAKER_03Literally, when I was walking out the door, I asked myself, did I treat everybody fairly and with respect? And that was my gut check. I recognized if I could say yes to those questions comfortably, I usually had people that didn't like me. I just at a very early age had to get comfortable with that's what leadership is about. The courage to make those hard decisions.
SPEAKER_02Today's guest is Sue Olsen, a transformational leader and fractional CHRO at Red Thread Consulting, where she helps emerging growth companies build agile people and talent strategies with a people-first approach. Her clients include private and public companies across high-tech, biotech, cybersecurity, and venture capital.
SPEAKER_01What does human-centered leadership actually look like when everything is moving so fast and stakes are so high?
SPEAKER_03Push as much as you can to take care of the people that are leaving. And then also that make sure the survivors understand too the thoughtfulness that you put into that motion of the layoff. The pressure that we give to people has to match what's happening in the company. For me personally, that can feel a rub if I feel like the story I'm saying does not represent the story that's inside that they're going to opt into. When you're a leader, that's your first team, and then your second team is your function. And some people really struggle with that.
SPEAKER_01What have you learned over your career in terms of the balance between emotional gut instinct and clarity or structured decision making?
SPEAKER_03What I continue to learn and develop is there's the objective business decisions that need to be made.
SPEAKER_01Through her firm Red Thread Consulting, Sue builds and leads agile people strategy and talent for emerging growth companies navigating their next phase. Sue, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today.
SPEAKER_03Keegan, thank you. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01Uh so just to get us started, you've spent your career working with CEOs and boards at some really fast-moving companies. What does human-centered leadership actually look like when everything is moving so fast and stakes are so high?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I go back to um when I originally started and I had a really formidable CEO at that time. And it was in the, I always say the 20th century, not the 21st century. So things were a little bit different then. Sure. You almost have to dial it back. But, you know, human-centric, that company was not necessarily fast moving. It was a very difficult product that we were putting in space, putting in uh semiconductor as an OEM and medical devices. So it was, I would say maybe the complexity of it was the fast moving, but you know, it took a while to get the product out the door. But that CEO, uh, and I was the first HR leader there, was very grounded in at the time, Hewlett and Packard uh guiding principles. And so to me, I worked with that organization for 10 years. So seeing those guiding principles, which were very simple, but also very complex, um, really was human-centric for me. I didn't know anything different. I was in a very formidable place in my career in my mid-20s.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I really like how you drew out the recognition that fast moving doesn't necessarily mean move fast and break things in the software techniques. When we say fast moving, we're often talking about the stress and the stakes uh that are related to it. And in a semiconductor OEM pipeline, the stakes and complexity are so high because it does take so long. It's the large ship that still has to be there that takes forever to turn if there was an error. And so you've worked in a couple of different things. What is consistent about human-centered leadership as a philosophy across the the different things that really came out of that original experience?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would say what came out of that was one, again, you know, I was formidable, so I didn't know anything different at that time. And that organization is in Silicon Valley, um, manufacturing. And again, the industry was dial pump solid state lasers, and that was disruptive at the time. I didn't know, I could not have articulated that at that time like I can now. And so we were literally hiring the best and brightest physicist out of Stanford. One of our board members had that department at Stanford. And then we were also hiring people that were on-the-line manufacturing, and this was all in one facility. So I saw a scale of what worked for one. The knowledge worker was not the same type of leadership that you needed for people that were, you know, coming in to do very intricate manufacturing and a different skill set. And then we had the middle level of people supervising the lines or supervising the assemblers and technicians. So throughout the thread that went through all of that was treating people fairly and with respect and just being very transparent. The CEO at the time, again, he was um he was disrupting in ways that now I look and think, wow, that was so interesting. It was an open workspace. We didn't have offices. So I have never worked in an office because of that experience. And people always laugh. I always have a conference room that I can go into for meetings that are important, but I've always been out with the people, I call it, so that I can understand and keep that close touch to the people. Yeah. To be human-centric with them, understand. I would say one of my principles very early on was seek to understand so then I could be understood. I think Covey's book was really big at that time of a big reader. You know, so I I had my own, I would say my own compass of how I wanted to lead, but also was being influenced like by the guiding principles of uh Hewlett and Packard, because that's what the CEO wanted to continue to shape the organization as I was the first HR leader. Yeah. Did that answer Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01As any good uh conversation, it sparked so many other insights and questions that we wouldn't have time to go down all the threads. One of the things I really want to draw on, though, is your one, what a formative experience and grounding in these when we have experiences that reinforce what already is our positive instincts uh early on in life. I have found that is just such a fortunate place to be able to bring more good and more of of positive effectiveness into the world. And so and the crystal story that you have around I've never worked in an office because especially in a in an HR role, in any leadership role, understanding the people and understanding what's going on in their lives and as a whole is such a powerful way to be effective.
SPEAKER_03Bob was the CEO, and I think that was so important to him, and he walked the talk of building trust. So he was truly a leader that walked around, and that was his leadership style. So again, I didn't know anything different. That was so comfortable for me. And um, so I walked around and I I knew everyone. People don't like to call companies family, but we truly were, we were about a uh during that time period, the we grew up to about 150. We all knew each other and we had a lot of good camaraderie in the in the organization, as well as you know, staying aligned to the business. But yeah, so again, it was a just a a very comfortable place for me to be at that time.
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_03You know, the other thing that I'm thinking about that was I'm sharing the human-centric, but I also had to learn the business and I was young. And I have two brothers that are older than me. And at the time when I was at this company, my oldest brother worked at IBM as an engineer. And my other brother worked at Intel as an engineer. They always would challenge me. Uh, they kind of were suspect of HR.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03And um, but at the time, my one brother recommended for me to read the book The Goal, which was really brought big insights into the complications of manuf, you know, actually putting a product out into industry. So I think that really formed who I am as a leader too, very early on, understanding the leadership and then understanding the function of HR. So I think of those things as almost three different hats. And I still, yeah. And I didn't, I could not have articulated that back in my twenties. No. But now I can say that was really a great experience for me.
SPEAKER_01Something I didn't formally work in an HR organization until my early 40s. And something that I realized as you're saying this that uh that really jumped out from the first time that we met last year was you are an HR professional who who does understand the priority of understanding the business and understands the relationship of HR in the service of the business. Whether it was in my time in the Marine Corps, whether it was my time in various tech companies, critical to success was understanding what the main objective was, what the organization was trying to do. Uh the Marine Corps does this very effectively. We'd say every Marine is a rifleman, and if you're not the 18-year-old Lance Corporal standing on a street corner with a rifle, then you're supporting that person. Even in the Marine Corps, supporting agencies can forget that because we get swamped by our own our own things. I've seen the same thing in HR organizations, where the worst example was an HR leader I once uh saw say, this company's on a rocket ship to Mars and HR is the captain. I was like, nope. Life support system, maybe. But your clear appreciation of and and the criticality to it's not just about professional excellence in the uh in the details and technicalities of uh human resources profession, but it's it in service of and understanding what the purpose of the business is is such a powerful force. And so I just thank you for articulating that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no problem. And I think that when you said that about the Marine Corps, you know, what was so clear there is the clarity and the transparency. And I think I read this book later, but um probably in about 2013 or 14, Patrick Lancioni's The Advantage. And he is very clear about when you're a leader, that's your first team. And then your second team is your function. And some people really struggle with that, but I, when I with any of my clients, because I come in at the leadership level, and then I might provide guidance to the HR team. I'm very clear about that. You know, my first team is is the the folks that's sitting at the table. And I think that that is important in leadership, is that people understand in businesses that you have to be aligned with those leaders before you can guide your function appropriately.
SPEAKER_01Uh I couldn't think of a better segue. Let's talk about the journey uh that has brought you to that level of clarity and role function. Uh, as we do in on Bet on People, we like to talk around three distinct stories. And so, first up, I'd love to hear some experiences you had from early in your career where you participated in or observed decisions that somewhat deprioritized the people, followed the more uh Machiavellian wisdom of uh it's all about the business.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think, and again, it's gonna go back to that early time period. One that sticks out for me was this organization I was in. Um, this was a second-time founder, so CEO, and and so he knew that he wanted to have a successor. Um, and we all were aware of that. Uh, and if I look back on it, you know, we weren't involved in the interview process. That's something I think wisdom would have come, I would have asked. But I was, you know, I was young, but so we the successor came in, uh, came in from someone in industry, was looking for that step up. And so we all were aligned. And then I would say at about three months or so, so this the former CEO who established the culture, established the the fact that there was product market fit out there in different industries. Um, he stepped aside and became chairman of the board, but was still on site.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03The new CEO came in in about three months, it was clear that there was misalignment. And like anything, uh, this new leader coming in will bring some of his colleagues from his previous organization, which often happens. You know, you actually, as I moved in my career, you sometimes when that happens, you think, ooh, am I gonna have my job? It was really different. It was a cultural situation. And again, I'm very young at this time. And people were coming to me and providing their feedback, some complaints, and I still remember it. I I went to Bob and I just said, you know, I'm not threatening at all, but these are our values. And with the new leader, we're misaligned. And this is making it really hard for me. I'm hearing um people that are concerned in the business who are complaining in the business. And for me personally, you know, I always think about it. H HR recruiting is at the top of the funnel. You're telling a story of why people should come to your organization. And that can feel very for me personally, that can feel a rub if I feel like the story I'm saying does not represent the story that's inside that they're gonna opt into. Um, so I was at a real decision-making place and I said, you know, I it's fine if this is the right leader for the future, but I will most likely be resigning. And he took that to his other co-founder, the C we VP of engineering, but it was really equal to a CTO, very established person. The two co-founded this organization together. And he was supportive of having the CEO, the new one, transition out to, and then the board. So I saw someone come to the table and make a decision when the operations were getting misaligned and leadership and culture. And what happened because of that is there there is tension because people did come over and aligned with him. It was hard.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that CEO was not in hindsight, was not expecting that. Um, so feedback would have been better up front. And so it was not an easy transition off at all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Are there any more specific examples of some of the the breakdown in the values and culture in that first three months that uh that you were seeing that that led to both the the challenges with the existing overall team and worry about business outcomes?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So this was um again, we were building things. So we had a whole inventory, manufacturing, all that good stuff. We had buyers, you know, a lot of positions that you don't hear about, especially in yeah, I shouldn't say that, but yeah, it was, you know, we were we we were not all knowledge workers. We were building. And so one of the people that were brought over was brought in and overseeing all the the three buyers that we did have. And, you know, the buying was components for what we were building. And that's where the first, I would say, crack started to happen. So the person that was brought in aligned with the new CEO was doing some deals that did not feel ethical to the rest of the team.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03And was going to suppliers that had a he had a good relationship with and was doing things that we had not done before. So that's when I started to hear the first. And I think as people saw some things, they got more confident coming forward and saying, boy, this this just doesn't feel right. Is this right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I was originally a sounding board. It was that type of culture, it was a kind culture. It was kind of like, I'm not sure this is right, but this is what I'm seeing.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for drawing that example out. You said earlier it was about culture, and uh anyone who's uh listened to this probably knows how central we at Utah feel find culture. Culture is what drives effectiveness, intentional culture, and uh and recognizing that. But with culture, culture is not a linear badge of good, it's about fit. And so I also really appreciate how when you approached the founders, it wasn't uh this is all burning and broken. It was this is a different culture than I'm used to, than others are used to. There are friction points. If this is intentional, that's great, but this is just not the place for me, which I think has a lesson not just in leadership, but in anyone looking for organizational fit and and when when that integrity between what they feel for themselves and what they feel in the organization isn't isn't lining up.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I would be remiss if I didn't uh uh really appreciate how you talk about the uh HR's top of funnel for telling the story and the integrity of the story matters. And and uh we met at a summit literally called the New Employer Brand that talked about uh brand of employers be extending all the way from initial awareness and recruiting all the way through how you handle exits. And that that value of yours is is so clear.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's I don't know if you remember, but one of the it's a HR leader that I follow and love. I've I don't think I've met her in person, Katie Burke, and she was saying at one one of the sessions during that charter event was she was saying, one of her team members says the brochure that we give to people has to match what's happening in the company. And I that was such a great visual for me. So, you know, it it does, it holds you accountable to what your brochure is gonna be when you're when you're recruiting, you know. Does it then does it look like that resort when they come into the company?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's and and when you talked earlier about like the formative principles, where trust is such a your ear for CO, emphasize trust. All the good organizations you've worked for, in effect for organizations, are about trust. That's the key. Trust is broken very easily by the cognitive dissonance between projection and reality. Uh and so keeping that alignment is so important.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I'd love to kind of now shift gears a little bit. At some point in your career, where's an example where from the word go there was prioritizing people over maybe cutthroat traditional business outcomes?
SPEAKER_03Sure. And again, this one might be a little bit dicey because I I think I'm usually in organizations that have a little bit of constraint, in interesting enough. There hasn't been like just a lot of a lot of excess cash. So um I've I've just built that discipline of um tough operational excellence. Yeah. And so dial this forward. This is back um probably in the late 2018-19s, and in an organization that um we went through a change in CEO by the board. The new CEO coming in was formerly a COO, again, stepping up into CEO, and came in and literally he was brought in to turn things around. And however, very aggressive, very, I think knew what he was doing um pretty quickly, but listened. And within a short period of time, he came to me. I was leading the HR function, and he said, We're gonna need to do a reduction and we're gonna need to close offices. We were global. And I said, Okay. And we were probably in October when he said that. And I said, We're are we gonna, you know, do this in the new year? No, we're gonna do this soon. And that and then he brought in that to the executive leadership. So we were all together on it. Um, and I was getting feedback from some of the executives, like poor timing. This is, you know, this is gonna be tough. So I listened to that, brought that comprehensively. I also had that same opinion. So it wasn't like I was hiding under I I went back to the CEO. I said, This is really, you know, a tough time. We're going, we're starting to go get close to the holidays and we're gonna reduce by 20%. And he said, Yep, we're gonna go into the new year with this behind us. And I said, Okay. And so I aligned there. Uh, and I was able to, because I also said, okay, if we're going to do this, here are some of the things that I think we need to think about. And one of them was we had flexible vacations. So nobody was accruing. So those are critical when you're, you know, thinking about in my mind, again, now I'm putting on my functional hat of leading through and or a layoff. And I said, I would propose that we are more aggressive and break policy on our severance that we normally do because of this situation. People are not going to go out with a, you know, a vacation accrual balance. They're going to miss the holidays that they were planning for. You know, can we think about that? And can we be generous on, you know, being um giving a couple of months of pain for their cobra? Because that's the biggest thing. You know, so and and can we also give out placement? And so we modeled that into the executive leadership. We started to say, okay, we we still have to come up with these reductions. However, this is what's going to happen with the list that it will be impacted. And that the CEO was really aligned with that. He was really aligned with we have to make tough operating decisions and we're not going to compromise on those. However, yes, we can think about ways to get through this with a human-centric. So I would say there was a little bit of a difference there because sometimes I've had leaders that are not flexible and the outcome is not as well received. And then once we got the list, then we started to cascade the next layer, brought them in. And we were, we spent a lot of time to make sure that everything was buttoned up before we brought the next layer in. And then we trained quite a bit because everybody was struggling with the timing of the decision. I mean, everybody was. However, you know, that was not going to be something that was going to move. Right or wrong, I don't debate about that. We did it. You know, it wasn't one that I couldn't debate. He would have found someone else to lead the organization through it. And it ultimately ended up okay. It's always hard. Um, but yeah, it ultimately ended up okay. And I actually had two leaders come up to me afterwards and they said, you know, and it was a fun environment, very aggressive. It was an ad tech. So we competed, yeah, against some of the big players. But a couple of leaders came up to me after it and they said, Sue, you could never put this on your LinkedIn, but it's pretty amazing how we moved through that layoff and came out okay on the other side. And everybody understood why we had to do it, when we had to do it, and how people were treated. So that I think to me is always the learning lesson there is these are hard, but you know, push as much as you can to take care of the people that are leaving. And then also that the word I think that I see out in industry a lot. I wish there was a little bit better word, but the survivors. Make sure the survivors understand too the thoughtfulness that you put into that motion of the layoff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or the riff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It all ties it to that trust building. Um, and Francis Frey's trust triangle of uh logic, authenticity, and empathy. Um showing that we care. I really appreciate you bringing this example because layoffs and riffs are some of the hardest things. I've been on both ends of them. The timing question is often is one of the sticky ones, but and the reality is there's no good time to get laid off. Um it always sucks. I remember one where I was I was uh chief of staff for an executive and it was a smaller scale, it was an organizational riff. And we were we were lining up and we had the plans uh in place, and we're a ton of care was going into this. And I th I think we had aligned the date just for quarter end for for various reasons, and it was we caught it in time, but we realized that that quarter end was October 31st, which meant and we realized that that meant that there was a chance that we were sending parents home to their kids' Halloween with that, and we made the decision that whatever the fiscal accounting for the quarter mattered less, we were going to adjust it by a day to to take a bat piece. One of the things that I observed, and and you gave a couple of examples of either pushback or consideration or pieces. You talked about the so when you brought the execs in, there was feedback about the overall timing and wanting to move that piece. When I've also seen it in reluctance to do the full like the generosity, or even talk about an own a layoff. I tend to find that the connective tissue of that is the underlying fear and reluctance to feel emotional pain and discomfort themselves as leaders because it it hurts and that and that is expressed through logic and justifying in oh well the timing's not good, or oh, uh we just have to rip off the band-aid. But true, like powerful culture that is based on trust isn't about not making the hard decision, it's about being able to sit with that discomfort and maturely and and create that create that generosity where you can, that empathy where you can, and leave the space for people who are most impacted to have their experiences and to and to feel just let it suck. And the worst examples are where CEOs over empathize, which is not empathy, and make it all about their pain. I I think I can remember a couple of Zoom firings with the during the pandemic where the CEOs were crying, and that's that's way missing the point.
SPEAKER_03You know, one of I, you know, the training deck that we put together and stuff, and I still have you know some key components from that, and and it was really training some of these managers that hadn't done it before. And one of the things is, you know, I I still to this day will say it, if you ask how, you know, do you have any questions or are there any things I can follow up with, take notes on that and stay true to that. And if you can stay true to that, then don't ask that question.
SPEAKER_01Yep. That's a great. Oh wow. That's such, such important part of this.
SPEAKER_03Because that's flipping the seat. Like, you know, and that's the other thing is I'll always say when I prepare for these, I put myself in how would I want to be treated? And I use that language with people very comfortably. You know, I'll just say I always think about how would I want to be treated? Yeah. These are hard things. And and so I go, you know, I filter it both ways. Yes, you have to do it. And that is part of leadership, the courage to make these hard decisions thoughtfully. And yes, also the responsibility of following up on things you said you would.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that sets this up very nicely for asking what your favorite decision story is. And I understand it's something, it's around learning to ask yourself uh a daily question about how you treated people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I, and I still do it. Um, and it came back in the under the leadership of Bob Mortenson and um, you know, the HP. And at the time it was, you know, always going into offices. But I literally, when I was walking out the door, I asked myself, did I treat everybody fairly and with respect? And that was my gut check. And I would, I recognized if I could say yes to those questions comfortably, I usually had people that didn't like me. And I early on had to get very comfortable with that. Because when you're when you're making decisions that are fair and respectful, usually someone's not happy with the outcome. They're impacted by it. And I just had at a very early age had to get comfortable with that's what leadership is about, the courage to make those hard decisions, but they were fair for the balancing the business and what leadership needed in the business. And even though someone might not like it, I did it in the most respectful way that I could. They might not have felt that, but I, you know, at some point you just have to say, I'm learning and growing too, I'll get better at this. But that those were my markers early on, and they still are my markers today. And there were some days where I would go home as I was young and I would cry because they were hard decisions, but I didn't cry in the business. I cried on my personal time. And I always would tell people if it was a hard decision that impacted them, and I still do this today. I'll just say, you know, I just want to know when I say I'm thinking about you, I will go home and I will think about you. Yeah. Um, and I'll I'll think about is there anything I can do after this hard decision to support you in the future or what have you? So again, it's that consistency that only I can bring. Very early, I just develop that and that still holds true to what I'm doing today.
SPEAKER_01Do you remember any days where you couldn't answer yes to both of those questions? And and what did you learn from those kind of experiences?
SPEAKER_03Yes. And there still are days like that. Sure. And what I usually do is I give myself grace. And I usually I realize that there's usually more growth. There is more growth for me, more self-ref more awareness and self-reflection. And um I I would describe myself as a lifelong learner.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03Um, and and and I don't do it right. And I I, you know, I think you know I I'm very open with people. I am an executive coach, you know, and I'm a coach. There are days where I'm sure people don't feel like I handled it fairly and with respect. So I have to navigate through that or have a place where I can have those conversations and understand, you know, how how can I continue to develop as a leader and as an example.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that has kind of been a through line of all of this is we've talked about what it takes to build trust and build a culture of trust. Um, and it's not just everyone feels like they like you. Um that there are hard decisions, whether it's heavy layoffs or whether it's smaller scale hard decisions or um but the responsibility of leadership is the decision making. Something that occurs to me as as you've been talking is a leader's emotional emotional instinct may not be the North Star that alliance with that. Uh have you found that to be true? Not not to ignore emotions, but initial emotional response of avoiding pain or even even asking someone in a situation of a layoff, you know, is there anything else I can do for you? For many people, I found that that comes from oh, I want to be able to help this person who is in pain, even if I'm not gonna think through the logical, I need to follow through with it. What have you learned over your career in terms of the balance between emotional gut instinct and clarity of decision and more structured decision making?
SPEAKER_03Let me know if this is answering it. But I think what I continue um to learn and develop is there's the objective business decisions that need to be made. And I'm there to do that with the business if it's aligned. And and if I'm in the business normally it is aligned, I'll opt out before that. And then making those hard decisions. And if someone is hurting from those, I'll still stay within those boundaries of I can only do so much, you know, and there's a boundary there. But I so I will offer up what feels authentic to me and and write for that relationship, but I don't over skew and get personally involved, um, if that makes sense. I yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I appreciate how you articulated out kind of the how of uh of thinking about that.
SPEAKER_03And I would say that's been a big learning for me more. So almost with my change to consulting, I've been doing it now for seven years. And I've really worked on that because I think when you're inside, you have a bit more emotional connection because you're there for the longer term when I was in-house. And with consulting, even though I I do work with the leadership team, I'm just that much more removed. And I've had to learn how to navigate through those um boundaries and not get so maybe emotionally tied, knowing I'm not gonna be there for, you know, three, four, five years. I'm gonna be there six to twelve months. Um, and that's been learning for me. That's been growth for me of of different boundaries that have to come into place and different courage that has to come, you know, it has to, I'm there to make an impact pretty quickly. Yep. And um, yeah, it's it's been growth. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01How do you uh speaking of your uh consulting practice, and we've of course talked about this a bit, uh, off off the microphone, through that learning, where do you find you bring the most value? Where where do you have the most impact and effect that in areas that you like to that you want to work with people on?
SPEAKER_03This last year and this year, I've been um thinking quite a bit about my North Star that um it's better leaders for a better world. And it, you know, my thinking has been shaped because of some pro bono work I've done and then a book that I've read. Uh and and so I decided to kind of riff off of that. And and I care deeply about, you know, better leaders. I've I've been in business for a long time. Uh, I want to transfer that knowledge, bring other people up as much as I can. So when I'm consulting, I have recognized, and I recognize this early on, um, that I will be able to do the work I want to do if the opportunity comes from a CEO or a board member or an investor. And the reason I say that is because they see that something has to change. And not discounting, but there were a few HR leaders that reached out and I got into the conversations, but they didn't have the sponsorship. They could see, yep, but the sponsorship wasn't there yet. So I saw that after three years of of I I kind of I did a retro on what what clients did I have? Who brought me those clients? And there were only two that I didn't um move past the proposal on. And those were the two that came from HR leaders. And again, it wasn't their fault. It's just they they just didn't have the um agency yet that was needed. So I love to go in when it is complex. I'm it's usually maybe the leadership needs to be restructured because the business might be going in a different direction or it's a different um stage in the business. There might be some culture trans, not transformation, I would say renovation that needs to be done at that point in time. I find when you're doing that type of work, it's also an opportunity where you start to scale the importance of internal communications and processes like is everybody informed? Is there transparency? Are we cascading? Those are a lot of the words that I bring and people start to use and adopt those patterns. And and when you're moving fast, a lot of times in, you know, in growth companies, they haven't had time to pause and say, oh gosh, those are new operating systems that we need in the business at this inflection point in the business. So they might seem straightforward, but for some, they just haven't had that cycle yet, that those become the operating systems that are super important. And the cross-functional breaking down the silos is also you know, and again, it's just it's just where people are at. And I'll say that there's no there's no fault, but let's let's bring some course correction in or some new ways of working into the business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Almost every situation that you described is a very normal course of a growing business. Uh things that were when information flow works at five, 10, 15, 20 people because everyone's involved in everything. As you scale up past 40, 50, is certainly in the 60, 70, 80 range uh and beyond, things don't stop working because of malicious actors, things stop working because that's just how human networks work. And uh intentional leaders are wise to bring you in uh to help craft those structures and systems, not burdened with a a bureaucracy, but to to be intentional about what those systems are gonna be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Can I share a fun story?
SPEAKER_01Please.
SPEAKER_03I was at a board meeting where I'm a board uh advisor, so I'm not a board member, but I'm in the boardroom and and I know the team and they're it's amazing technology that's coming out. Um, and I was talking to one of the latest hires that just moved here to California to work for this organization. And he was in doing research at a company, and he's perfect for this. And I said, I'm curious, you know, now that you've been at this organization for six months, there was a board meeting yesterday, and so he was around. And I said, What are um things that surprised you? One or two things that have surprised you, and a couple of things that, you know, are a little bit different and super insightful. I call these the old souls, very young in his career. He literally is leaving a research lab, and this is his first job. And he said, I love the Monday meetings that we have because we're all together in a room. And he said, I'm hearing how what I work on, I need to be aware of what other people are working on. And we have these meetings every Monday morning, and he said, we all work so closely together. And then I said, So, and what I'm hearing is the importance of collaboration and understanding that your work impacts others. And he said, Yeah. And so, you know, coming out of a research environment, this is new for me to under, you know. So he was hitting on the key components, and he's super young in his career. And it was just so fun to hear that. But that comes from the leader at the top that's setting the stage for the folks. And then his other insight was um, he said, Yeah, I'm also learning that, you know, we have a product that we're going to market, and I'm used to researching and the curiosity. And he said, So I'm really learning a lot about prioritization and focus and teaching my, you know, and and he wasn't, you could tell he was internalizing that these were new muscles.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03He had he's developing because of it being in a very different role from research to putting a product to market. And it just, it was really fun to hear that because it means the leadership is really aligned on those principles that I feel really make a difference in an organization.
SPEAKER_01I think you know you're doing it right as a leader if you have someone who says, I love this meeting. Media media culture goes the other way most of the time. That's yeah, um that that's really awesome. So that like that's the top of the uh that's the top of the content. Are you ready for our lightning-ish round?
SPEAKER_03I sure am. I'll do my best that I can.
SPEAKER_01All right. That's that's all we ask here. Uh so what was your first job?
SPEAKER_03My first job was working for my parents. They bought a bookstore when I was in middle school. So I started working for them on Saturdays uh in the back room um when I was about 12 or 13 years old, counting, counting inventory as it came in.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Well, uh, I'm gonna call an audible here. Um, this is the ish of the lightning-ish part. Uh, what's something you learned there that still holds true for you in your current work?
SPEAKER_03I think uh I saw operations, parents, it was their livelihood, so they had a high bar, um, under almost too high of a bar. Um, you know, I was expected to do things pretty perfectly. But the other thing is, is I think my dad had a model that he understood before there was Amazon. So there were certain things that he ordered in major bulk for the profit margin. And there were other the books were not necessarily the profit margin. It was some of the curriculum that he was, and I was responsible for unboxing truckloads of boxes that came in and counting it out and dispersing it to different clients. So I I I have a I was able to start to develop those muscles of operations and precision, I guess, earlier.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What's one leadership skill that you wish you'd learned earlier in your career?
SPEAKER_03I wish I would have found my voice a little bit earlier. Uh confidently. I found my voice, but I think sometimes they were sidebar conversations.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03I wish I would have been more confident right away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What's the uh what's the biggest myth about leadership that you've heard?
SPEAKER_03I will demyth by saying leadership is really hard. I don't know if people feel that it's easy. I d but I leadership is really hard. And I think the other thing is the thing I work on a lot is the difference between manager and leader, management and leadership. And so I'm not sure if those are myths or not, but I do believe we don't talk enough about the gaps. And we don't talk enough about leadership, it's really hard if you're doing it well.
SPEAKER_01I just had coffee with a roommate of mine from college. We were both in ROTC together. And first semester, freshman year naval science class, the the textbook was basic. I don't know if it was literal title, but the it was fundamentally the difference between management and leadership. And that was like the number one lesson uh as an 18-year-old in ROTC midshipman. Um we're comparing those and how that has stayed true through our uh he's at NVIDIA now. Uh and and so, yeah. Uh all right, what's the worst professional advice you've ever received?
SPEAKER_03I don't know if it it it came from a person, but if I had listened to it, um I when I was when I was 22, I was born and raised in um Wisconsin, and I knew I wanted to come out to Silicon Valley. And my oldest brother said, Why would you do that? And so he was challenging, you know, why would you take that risk? And I did it, but I I think if I had listened to that, things would have been very different for me.
SPEAKER_01My father was in the Navy also and then and was stationed briefly at Moffat Field for a training squad for about six months. And famously in our family, he and my mom did not buy property in Silica Valley in 1975 or 1976, because uh my dad's dad said it's never gonna go higher than this. So I'm glad that you did not listen to your brother's advice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, and I, you know, advice that I would um that I listen to on myself, and I I always tell people not to, is um I stepped out for 10, 11 years to raise our three boys. And when I stepped out, it was after the formative 10 years. Yeah, and I kind of stopped everything. And even at the time, a few people said, Hey, Sue, would you want to consult? We have some projects. And I said, No. And I would not do that again. And I do tell that I have a lot of women that come to me for mentorship because of I did come back into the work world and and restart my career. But that's the one piece I always say. Um, if I had hindsight, I would have kept my uh iron in the fire. Uh, it took me a lot longer and a lot more work to get back in when I wanted to get back in because I had really not um I was solely focused on our family and school and nonprofits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_03So I gave myself some bad professional leadership advice.
SPEAKER_01We all figure things out as we go and and with the best intentions. All right. Last question. Uh not leadership or business related. Uh, what's uh what's a media recommendation? What's what do you listen to? What do you watch and what are you reading uh that you would want to share?
SPEAKER_03I would say I read a lot of books. So a couple of books, um, I mean, uh there's like a thread that goes through my whole career. I would say the the two most recently that have made an impact on me are the blue sweater. Okay. Um, and then the other one is every purchase matters. Um I care deeply about um global initiatives. And those are two books that it really have me thinking and thinking about priority of my time. And I call it, I think I might have shared with you, I call it my portfolio of impact of where I spend my time and stay very disciplined. And so I'm playing around with those two books a lot. And then I would say most recently, um, we started watching the series The Madison.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I've heard I haven't watched it yet.
SPEAKER_03Uh I I am really enjoying it. Um, I don't watch a whole lot of TV. I get distracted pretty easily. Um but that one has got me, I'm into it. And it's only six seasons. That's probably, you know, it's yeah, I like the ones that are short.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Wonderful. And thank you so much. I will have to check that one out. I'll move it up the queue. Uh Sue Olsen is our global uh HR executive and fractional CHRO who partners with CEOs and boards to build people strategy for emerging growth companies at these critical inflection points that you heard us talking about. Uh Sue, we'll have all this linked in the show notes, but where can people find you? Uh and where else do you want listeners to check you out?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm I'm always um available if you're in the Bay Area for coffee, just hit me up. Um, and then I do have a website, redthreadhr.com. That's um, it's a pretty light website, but you know, if you're looking for me, LinkedIn is great. Uh and then I just started a Substack about a month ago. I decided I wanted to do more of my what's in my head, get it on paper. So it's a new um energizing challenge for me. Um, writing is not my first love, but uh a couple of people have encouraged me. But yeah, I'm really easy to get in touch with. And but I I I would say link, you know, LinkedIn is probably the best. I do respond to those and then yeah, email.
SPEAKER_01Awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh we will make it easier for anyone to get in touch with you. Uh finding all all this information uh in the in the notes. Uh as always, follow, like, and subscribe to Bet on People on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Uh, and if you want to learn more about how we at Uta think about leadership, visit Uda.io slash executive coaching. I'm Keegan Evans, and uh here are we Bet on People.