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Bet on People
We talk to leaders and business owners about their journey learning the value of human-centered leadership and how betting on people isn't just good feels, it's smart business. We explore the career arc behind their evolution as a leader: where human-centered values showed up early and where they had to learn the hard way.
Bet on People
Bet on People with Van Lai-DuMone
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of the Bet on People Podcast, Keegan Evans, executive coach and AI Consultant at Euda and Limited Partner at Beyond Earth Ventures, sits down with Van Lai-DuMone, Founder and CEO of worksmart Advantage, Creative Keynote Speaker and Author of What If Pigs Can Fly: A Practical Guide to Follow Your Curiosity. They explore how creativity and curiosity function as essential leadership capabilities, and how organizations can unlock innovation by creating environments where people feel safe to experiment, contribute ideas, and think differently.
Van shares her journey from a highly creative childhood in a Vietnamese refugee family to building a leadership development consultancy rooted in “creative integration.” Through stories spanning early corporate experiments that didn’t land, pivotal mentorship moments, and her work with Navy SEALs using Lego Serious Play, she illustrates how creativity becomes a practical tool for solving real business challenges. The conversation also explores how leaders can move beyond control-based management, why curiosity is critical in the age of AI, and how small shifts in behavior can meaningfully transform organizational culture.
Expect to Learn:
- Why creativity is a core leadership skill, not just an artistic trait
- How curiosity drives innovation and better decision-making in organizations
- What “creative integration” looks like in leadership development
- Why psychological safety determines whether ideas surface or disappear
- How leaders often fail by abandoning creativity during “messy” phases
Episode Breakdown with Timestamps
[00:00:00] – Teaser
[00:01:07] – Introduction: Creativity, leadership, and human-centered work
[00:03:21] – How culture and education suppress creativity
[00:05:29] – Reclaiming creativity in adulthood and its impact on work
[00:07:26] – Building Work Smart Advantage and creative integration approach
[00:11:10] – Founder misalignment and learning from customer needs
[00:15:30] – Lego Serious Play and military transition work
[00:23:15] – “Creative chaos” and why leaders abandon new approaches too early
[00:27:49] – Curiosity framework: pause, ask, act
[00:34:44] – What is Lego Serious Play and why it works
[00:37:47] – Leadership lesson: you don’t need all the answers
[00:40:01] – Worst advice: never discount your work
[00:43:07] – Audacious networking and closing thoughts
If you'd like to dive deeper into today's conversation, check out What If Pigs Can Fly? Available now on Amazon.
Link: https://www.amazon.com/What-Pigs-Can-Fly-Possibilities/dp/1953183433
🔗Connect with Guest Van Lai-DuMone:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanlaidumone/
👉 Email: van@worksmartadvantage.com
🔗Connect with worksmart Advantage:
👉 Website: http://www.worksmartadvantage.com/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/worksmartadvantage/
🔗Connect with Host Keegan Evans:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keeganevans/
🔗 More from Euda:
👉 Website: https://www.euda.io/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/euda-io/
🔗 Follow the Podcast on:
👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bet-on-people/id1882863281
👉 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HgXTMbgkDsmuqzUiDGcXc
👉 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Euda-io
Behavior of the leaders is far more important, modeling the desired outcomes.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely agree because there's so many companies you can walk into, and part of the values is either creativity or curiosity or innovation. And then you look around like, where is it?
SPEAKER_00Meet Van Lai Damone, founder and CEO of WorkSmart Advantage. She empowers leaders and teams to think differently, embrace experimentation, and turn bold ideas into action through her unique creative integration methodologies. She's also a creative keynote speaker and the author of What If Pigs Can Fly, a practical guide to follow your curiosities.
SPEAKER_02I regularly hear in terms of AI coming around that it suppresses creativity. What are your thoughts around the near and midterm future in the work that you're doing in the place of creativity?
SPEAKER_01I do use AI to help me filter my thoughts, to help me expand my thoughts. Creativity is so innately human. Creativity is something that's always been part of who I am. And I put it aside for many years to pursue the corporate jobs and promotions, all of that.
SPEAKER_02What's the worst professional advice you've ever received?
SPEAKER_01When I first got my business, people said don't ever discount.
SPEAKER_02I'm Keegan Evans, executive coach and founder of UDA. And my guest today is Bun Lai Damon, founder and CEO of WorkSmart Advantage. She helps organizations unlock innovation through her creative integration, trademark methodologies. She's also the author of What If Pigs Can Fly, a practical guide to follow your curiosity, which tells the story of how her mother and 19 Vietnamese refugee women trailblaze what's now the $8.3 billion U.S. man. Von, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me, Keegan.
SPEAKER_02It's a delight to have you here. Let's kick off where we usually like to kick off a general leadership question. You've built your company around an idea that creativity isn't a nice to have, but it's a strategic problem-solving tool. Can you tell us a little more about what is so valuable about creativity for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So for me personally, creativity is something that's always been part of who I am. And I put it aside for many years to pursue the corporate jobs and you know, promotions and all of that. And it's the only way I brought it back into my life that I realized how important it is, not just to me, but to everyone. We are all innately creative. And when we're able to share that creativity in every aspect of our lives, including our work lives, it really is, like you said in your introduction, is a strategic tool, not a nice to have. Um so when I think about leadership, I think about how do we become leaders who value creativity more.
SPEAKER_02When you said uh that creativity was something you always had, were there parts of you or expressions of creativity when you were younger that then you turned off or suppressed or moved away from? Or was it just something you know that was inside you that you found later?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I was painting and cutting things up. Like I tell stories that like my mom and dad bought me this brand new beautiful white bunk bed. And by the end of the day, it was muraled, right? Painted, muraled. I used to cut up my clothing and like make my own clothing, paint my shoes. My creativity was artistic, like very hands-on artistic creativity.
SPEAKER_02Was there anything that you've recognized that that caused that to go inside more and be less less expressive?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So I think for all of us in the society of the way we live, we're all first of all, like I said before, we're all innately creative. Whatever that looks like for you as a child, we all understand that creativity is a way for children to learn, and that is taught out of us pretty quickly through schooling and through education as we get older. And for me, it was the same, right? Like I was very creative as a child. But then as I went to school and and art became from something you did naturally in school to like, oh, it's an elective, and then there was none of it at all. And then on the other side, personal side of it, more like my family life, I'm a Vietnamese refugee. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the South Vietnamese Air Force. So when we came to this country as refugees, it was very much about, you know, doing the things you need to do to survive and to have a career versus doing the things you love. I don't know how many maybe other Vietnamese refugees or or Asian guests you've had on the show, but many of them will tell you, you know, that growing up it was all about schooling, like the academics of schooling. So yes, it was taught out of me very early on in life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. My kids have a white uh bunk that I could picture like the the expression of uh and muralization of that it brought up in me. I I realized I, as a younger child, I don't remember thinking of myself as a creative. In fact, I remember my my brother was the artistic one. And I, even though I I I played the violin and things like that, that felt more like a technical piece. And there's you know, the oldest child, younger anxiety reasons for all that. But your point about this creativity in all of us, and it's innate to our humanity, is so important because whatever path we come to, what I found later in life, uh comedy is one area that I've gone to, both stand-up and improv, as so important to expressing my creativity. And also in that exploration, it comes back and feeds into how I lead and how I coach and how I interact and product design and all of those pieces to have that outlet and to have that not even just an outlet, but acknowledgement and an expression of self, a whole self, is so important. So that's I love your articulation of it.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_02What have you seen in your work as any aha moments around creativity, either for yourself or for people you've worked with?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So going back to like the the work I do started really um well before this was when I worked in the corporate environment, I really felt like creativity was missing. And so for me, what I started to do was I started to bring creativity back into my personal life. I remember getting rid of my television and getting a um an easel and a giant canvas, and I started to start painting. And in doing that, I just felt, you know, like it was just like brought me back to life. And when I was working in this corporate environment, I felt like, well, where's the creativity in the workplace? So by doing that, it allowed, like you were saying, like the creativity in my personal life brought more creativity into my work life. And that's when we started thinking, like, okay, well, what about creativity directly into the workplace? And that was really the impetus of starting my business. And when I first started my business, it was this idea of bringing arts and crafts into corporate environments. I made up some random art projects. One was called Weave of Dreams, where we would taught, write our goals down on muslin strips and make them into yarn hanging. Um, another was called Let Your Light Shine, where we do this, like remembering in elementary school, you do the silhouettes of your face. So we would do silhouettes and then people would decorate them with all the things that made them unique. Um in my mind, this is what we would do in the corporate environment, but everyone said no to the idea, right? So we'll start off with like, let's just bring arts and crafts in the workplace, because that's why I thought, you know, would be beneficial because it helped me in my life. I would like to revamp it to how do I make creativity and bringing creativity into the workplace in a way that is beneficial to the work environment. And that's really the direction my my work went into.
SPEAKER_02I love it. And we're gonna get into a couple of the stories about the journey along the way of how you got there. But before we do it, can you tell us what is Work Smart Advantage now? What is that, what is an experience work with you all look like?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So Work Smart Advantage, um basically it's a learning and development consultancy. And what I do is I go into organizations and I teach team and leadership development all through the lens of what I call creative integration, which means all that work is done through creativity, play, curiosity, and sharing experiences. So it might be a workshop on you know conflict management and resolution, but you might be building how you deal a conflict out of Legos and then talking about that. We might create an artifact at the end, like a what I call a grounding rock, which is basically a painted rock that reminds you of how the strengths you bring to the team. Um so, yes, all the soft skills you could learn in leadership development, but done through a creative lens, which I feel makes it more engaging in the process of and then retainable because you have an emotional connection to it. And so that is the core of my work. I also, as you mentioned, my book, What a Pigs and Fly, I talk a lot about curiosity. So I do a lot of workshops and um keynote speaking on the power of curiosity and the framework I share. And really where I've really moved my business to is this concept of how do I teach people to be creative leaders and use creative problem-solving skills.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love it. We look a lot at Yudo at uh you know, our vision is human flourishing in the age of AI. And that's not about bolting AI into everything, it's but it's how do humans flourish. And and one of our core principles is curiosity uh around that. And so your emphasis on curiosity and play to unlock and enable is I think not just important in in what a lot of people are familiar with in terms of leadership and strategic work, but crucial, uh, essential, more important than ever going forward as the fundamental human skills that will continue to support people.
SPEAKER_01And and your work is so important too, because is uh I think the majority of people look at AI and and see it in a certain way is definitive, is gonna take our jobs away, whatever it is. But to look at the get get get curious about like, okay, well, how can we work together with this and give humans a place in it too?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the central place in it, actually, we're hoping.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I love that. So great work like this never comes out of wholly formed uh out of out of things. So I I want to, in our normal format around decisions that you've made or lessons you've learned along on how to place people in different in different parts of those decisions. I'd love to hear. Uh I know that there's a a point early on in Work Smart Advantage where you maybe deprioritized people or didn't prioritize people as much as you originally would have thought in favor of traditional business decisions. Can you talk a little more about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I guess when you say traditional business, I think I think of, you know, I grew up in the 80s, you know, graduated from MBA in the in 2000 and started working. And when I went to the workforce, you know, the leader was the leader and you just listened to the leader, right? And like you know what the leader told you to do, at least in my experience, or at least how I perceived it. So my launch worksmart advantage. I I feel like you know, I am the leader of this business. And my mistake in hindsight was I built the programs, I built this business around only what I was passionate about versus what my clients actually needed. So I really I was like, I want to bring arts and crafts into the workplace, I want to bring creativity to the workplace, and this is exactly how I want to do it. And since it's my business and since I'm the leader, this is the way it's going to be. And what I realized about that is that um it wasn't the right choice. Cause like I said, when I first started my business calling it craftivity events and bringing our project like weave of dreams, nobody wanted it. So when you ask that question for me, it's it was when I think about you know deprioritizing people, I deprioritize my clients in that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. It's a very uh very common, very seductive point of view when I coach on inventor entrepreneurs. It's about you you figure out the problem you're trying to solve and obsess over the problem and not any one solution. So other than people just not wanting it, was there any single point or single experience that started to turn the light bulb on for you of how to how you wanted to shift your approach?
SPEAKER_01A couple of things. Well, I continue to go back. Um, when I started the business, it was twofold or actually threefold, the third fold I never moved forward with. That third fold was getting a school bus, making an arts and crowd center, and driving around and having kids' birthday parties. So if it wasn't still that I do, go for it because I'm just never gonna do that. So the other two were like these workshops in my backyard or my friend's art studio where I would just promote, you know, these workshops and people would come individually and and and take the courses. And then the other part was how do I bring this into the corporate environment? And didn't make any changes to it to bring it to the corporate vibe. I just figured I would just do exactly what I'm doing in my backyard, and people would would want it. And they didn't. And so the pivotal moment for me was the understanding that I needed to do this differently, right? Clearly, there's a gap between what I'm offering and what's needed in the workplace. And I actually went to this networking event well way back when in Santa Monica, and I met this gentleman, uh, his name is Jason Press, and he is now an executive coach. And he wasn't at the time, he worked in branding at the time. And we met for Poffi one day, and he, you know, he he listened to my work, and he said, Well, you know, if this is what you're trying to accomplish, then you might want to rebrand and really focus on the needs of the corporate environment and how creativity can can play into that. And that's exactly what I did. I went back home, I kind of sat down and came up with the name Work Smart Advantage, and started thinking about how can I take all the things I've done in my past in learning development, team development, and incorporate creativity into that versus trying to force arts and crafts into the workplace.
SPEAKER_02Sure. That's great. Inside of that is the meta point of continuous curiosity, is the key to success. You had you had to stay curious to to yourself, and that was curious about what's not working, what's here, and then open and curious to your branding mentors uh insights uh and then and learning around that. That's really that's really powerful.
SPEAKER_01I wasn't even thinking or talking about curiosity at the time, but when I think about it, and I wasn't talking about creative leadership too, but when I look back um at that time, you know, I had to really take on all the characteristics of a creative leader, which is someone who's curious, understands that all ideas matter, um is able to pivot and iterate and collaborate with others. So yeah, so it's interesting how even though I didn't know at the time, what I had to do was become the creative leader that I teach people to do now, to become now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Was there any uh light bulb moment uh in in that process of oh now I'm I'm I am onto I am onto something, I do understand it. Uh what how did you know that you were on the right path and it clicked?
SPEAKER_01Uh and I make this face because it's interesting as an entrepreneur, as you know, like do we ever do we ever understand that we get it? And I will say that I so and I still do that, and I'll tell you there was one a point in my career where I was or in this business where I was like, what am I doing here? Like I just keep throwing spaghetti at walls, like never really clearly know what I'm doing. And I had another executive coach at the time tell me, that's great, right? In my mind, it was framed as like, this is horrible. Like, like um, I never know exactly what I'm doing. She's like, Well, that's great because your work is in creativity, and that's what you get to do every day. You get to create something new for and with your clients. So that reframe really helped me. And because there was no blueprint for this work, right? So like I made up this job about bringing creativity to the workplace, there went for a while that there was like, is this working, right? Is this making a difference? Is this having any impact? And I wouldn't have taste of the impact where people would tell me, you know, what you do is uh you know, you can help me um do X, Y, and Z, help me strategize, whatever it was on an individual basis. But another aha moment for me was about, I would have to say it was six years ago now, um, after I became a Lego serious play facilitator. We can get this out later too.
SPEAKER_02I definitely want to hear more about that.
SPEAKER_01I was introduced to this organization called the Honor Foundation in San Diego. And it's organization that helps special force operators like Navy SEALs, Marine Raiders, Green Berets transition from military to civilian careers. And they were interested in bringing Lego serious play into their program. So I raised my hand for it. I got selected and I went down there and I teach one class every quarter on transition night, where we use these creative methodologies to look at what's next for these men and women, right? What's next for your future? Rather and really using curiosity and creativity to to formulate that. It was really in doing that and seeing the impact that it's had that made me realize this. Like, I say this in jest, but truly, if it's good enough for a Navy SEAL, it's good enough for you. Right?
SPEAKER_02There, I think it's it's a uh I would argue it's a common stereotype that uh when we think of Navy SEALs, uh creative is not necessarily the first, at least art artistic creative is not necessarily the first thing we think of. And and that flows very nicely into your worldview that everyone is creative. Uh was there great stories in in terms of like a seal or a raider, just it really clicking or or or what what's the mo what's the story of surprise in that in that process for you?
SPEAKER_01So I mean what's surprised number one, what surprised me is that all veterans are not 80-year-old men from being off in one era. Um so that was shocking to me. The first time I walked in this room and like literally inwalked 40 Navy SEALs in their prime, and I had Legos all over the table. I was like, oh no, this is not gonna go well. But it did go well, and six years later, I'm still there every quarter. It doesn't surprise me anymore. What surprised me about creativity in that environment and any environment I go into is it doesn't matter how skeptical people are and when they walk in and see art supplies, Legos, rocks, markers on the table, you know, they always by the end come around. And it's those ones that are most skeptical, then like put the Lego down, it's time to go home, right? Because it speaks to it speaks to what we talked about earlier, like we are all innately creative. So when we give people the time, the space, and supplies to tap into the creativity, everyone buys in. So so what surprised me was that um I guess I mean that it works so well, right? Like it actually works. This experiments of mine.
SPEAKER_02You saw the success of that experience, and and the and and uh you know, in your framing of deprioritizing people, you you said that it was uh you weren't paying attention to the potential customers and potential clients of what the problems they're really trying to solve. You get this experience of, okay, now I see it. Everyone is creative. There is a there there. There's people are that that SEAL who was a uh a crank is not letting go of the Legos. What was the next step that you did for your business to kind of steer into that, recognize that how to t really maximize what what you were that insight?
SPEAKER_01So I would like the revamping of the business to work smart advantage and focusing on the priorities of business, right? They want to develop people, they want stronger teams, a strategy, and to look at the things that I could offer. For me, it was learning development, like soft skills learning development, and just taking workshops I had done in early in my career in other organizations and taking that and looking and be like, okay, well, I can teach mentoring coaching teams from a binder like I used to do, or I can insert these creative tools into it. And at first it really was the same creative tools I was using before, you know, but except except I would teach the workshop, and then maybe at the end we might do something called a creative project. I used to call them creative art projects, and now that I call them creative artifacts. So create a reminder of the work we did through a tactile way. And then I started going out and discovering different creative methodologies, like Lego studio's play, like the creative problem solving process. So I built my own skills so I could take those skills and not deliver them directly as I was taught them, but be able to incorporate them into the work I do.
SPEAKER_02I love it. And were you where in organizations were you focused? Were you focused on senior leaders? Were you focused on everywhere? Did you start one place and expand?
SPEAKER_01So I started working with with senior leaders. Um like I say the leadership teams, and in in the sense of like the learning, the leadership development, but I also did team development programs where I work with everybody, right? I do a lot of off-flights and retreats where we got to work with everybody. Yeah. With this work and creativity and bring creativity in the workplace, what I have found though is that it is the leadership that needs to buy into it first, right? Um, because it's a lot easier for a leader to come in and say, hey, we're gonna start using this process called creative problem solving, or we're gonna start solving our problems with Lego, than it would be for um, you know, a middle manager to take that information and try to move that up in the organization.
SPEAKER_02Surely. And how did you tackle that? Did you, did you just continue to just train yourself? Did you bring in additional facilitators with other skill sets? What was what was your approach to help get from the influence of the senior leaders, but throughout throughout the rest of the organization?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's still something that I work on today, right? So oftentimes people will bring me in for one thing and it might be let's cut lab you come in and and talk about conflict management and resolution for the senior leadership team. So that's sort of like the way in is a leadership development program. And then when I start talking about and we start using the creative tools throughout the program, and that's sort of like my intellect to, and I always try to share a little bit about like why creativity is important and why um being a creative leader is important. So it's still a work in progress, right? To kind of get people to understand it and value it enough to say, okay, yes, we we want it to implement this at the top and trickle it down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What has been so we've got the Honor Foundation and the the SEALs actually do like Legos. Um it's not just Marines who like crayons. As you continue to expand this, and what's what are some other good surprises that you that you've had that have really reinforced the an understanding of the problems that corporate leaders are facing?
SPEAKER_01Well, what's interesting is that I think I mean I think early on in my work, there was not a value of creativity, right? People have been like, uh, we don't need that. And I think the pandemic changed that because people saw like, oh, we all need to be creative, we all need to pivot, we all need to do something different and innovate. So when I first started this work, it was a lot of, you know, having to educate people about the value of creativity in the workplace before I can even sell what I do. And now I feel that there is a deeper understanding of the value of innovation and how innovation comes from creativity and that creativity is everyone's job, right? Like for us to really for organizations to move forward is not just about the leaders telling people what to do. It's how do we get everyone to be more creative and innovative so the best ideas make it to the finish line.
SPEAKER_02What are some indications of an organization that is doing that that is really doing a good job of uh empowered creativity throughout the organization?
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, so signs of that would be that people at all levels of your organization um feel free to share their voice, right? They're they're open to sharing their ideas because they know they're not gonna they're not gonna be put down or judged. So for me, like that is the biggest one is are people willing to share their ideas because it's a collaborative environment, they're not gonna feel judged for their ideas, and the their ideas are welcome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Where do leaders get it wrong most often or or most easiest to correct in in implementing these things?
SPEAKER_01I think it's so easy as a leader to to be busy, right? Sure. And to not allow not allow the room and the space for this to happen. I always talk about this concept of creative chaos. Like so, as you start implementing these mindsets and skill sets and tools of creative leadership, they might take a little more time than you telling people what to do, right? Or going with the first idea that comes to the table. So this idea of creative chaos is every time you apply these creative tools, you're gonna face what I call creative chaos. A time where it looks like this isn't working, it's taking too much time. Um, nobody's getting it. And oftentimes people make a U-turn and do things the way they've always done it. So I can show this slide that is like, okay, I'm telling you right now, you're gonna face this time where it looks all jumbled up. Don't make that U-turn, keep going, because on the other side of creative chaos is that innovation, better teamwork, better ideas.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's powerful. You also shared, uh, and we I mentioned this in the intro, of course, uh, a really powerful story around your mom and the other uh refugee women. And uh, of course, I I think you said this is the the centerpiece of the book uh as well. And I'd love to hear not just that story, uh, but how how that has intersected with this the other work that you've done in in terms of prioritizing people.
SPEAKER_01Like I mentioned, a Vietnamese refugee. I came here at two years old in 1975 with my family. And our first home was at Camp Peninsula Marine Base in San Diego. We were there for a few months. Well, honestly, the Marines there had to use their curiosity and creativity too. It was the first time in US history that military bases house refugees. So it was like they had 36 hours to be like, uh, how do we do this? Right. And they did it. And then we were transferred to a refugee integration center in Northern California called Hope Village, and that was civilian run. And it was there that um there was a Hollywood movie star that volunteered her, that her name is Tiffy Hedrin, uh, most famously known for her starring role in Alfred Hitchcock's movie, The Birds. And I always like to say, for the younger generation, she's Melanie Griffith's mom, Dakota Johnson, the grandmother. You know, so now I reference who she is. So she came to the camp, and her role that she took on was let's help these women find a career in their new country. So she has started this typing and sewing class. My mom and 19 other people signed up. And, you know, imagine being Tippy Hydra and Hollywood movie star, had like we have brought in typewriters, brought in sewing machines, brought in the teachers. These 20 women are sitting there typing and sewing, but they had this curiosity about something very different than typing and sewing. They saw her long red manicure nails, and that sparked a curiosity for them. And when I think about that moment, I think, how wild is it that Tippi could have just easily ignored that curiosity, right? And said, thank you, keep typing and sewing. And where would we be now? Um, but she did, she paid attention to that curiosity. She paused, she paid attention, and she took on, I mean, naturally, these creative leadership characteristics, like all ideas matter, good ideas can come from anyone, you know, even though I don't believe that I set this all up, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. So she paused enough to pay attention to that, and they started asking questions like what if, how might we, how might we become licensed manicurists? And those questions came with some challenges, like they didn't speak English and they didn't have money to pay tuition. Yep. But rather than focusing on the challenge, they focused on the opportunity and the possibility. So Tippi first brought in her manicurist from LA to teach them how to do a basic manicure. And then she walked them all down to the local beauty school, um, citrusized beauty college, and told um the owners, I have these 20 women, this is what we're trying to accomplish. Can you help us? And they said yes. So after 400 hours and 10 weeks of schooling, my mom and her friends became the first 20 licensed Vietnamese manicures in the United States. And, you know, if you live in the United States, you know that most manicures are Vietnamese, right? 60% across the entity, 90% here in California. And it's all based on that story. It's based on like a leader following curiosity and believing that all ideas matter and we should pursue other ideas than my own.
SPEAKER_02That's right. I know I I actually did not know the statistics that you just uh Oh yeah. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's an $8.3 billion industry now.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that wild? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That is absolutely wild. And and yeah, distilling it down to that one, recognizing all ideas matter, good ideas can come from anywhere, and that instinct or generosity or curiosity, the combination of all of those to jump and respond and and follow that thread. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because think about I think about how many curiosities have tapped us on the shoulder that just ignored because we're too busy, right? To to pause and pay attention. So I think it might like in the book, I talk about that framework of following curiosity, never one pausing long enough to pay attention. And then being asked those questions like how, how might I, what if, despite your own insecurities, your own doubts, the challenges, and then just to take that one small step forward and see what opens up for you. And I want to say, like, when you talk about the connection, you know, um, I talked about like how I grew up earlier about, you know, being from a family of like it was really strict, like it was all about education and academics. And, you know, my parents always told me by their words, here's what you need to do with your life. Yeah, go to school, get a graduate degree, get a job, work, and then have fun when you retire. So those are the words I heard. But what I saw them do every day out of necessity was follow curiosity with creative action. Okay. Right. I at the C I saw them because we did, you know, whatever happened, it was like, okay, how do we get curious about this? And what do we need to do to move forward? So, and when I first quit my corporate job, started this business of creativity, I thought to myself, oh my gosh, my parents are gonna be so disappointed. Like I'm not following what they said, but in reality, what I'm doing is I'm following what they what I saw them do every day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. How did that um I mean how'd that conversation go?
SPEAKER_01Well, I still think my mom thinks I'm a doctor.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Have you talked to her about the insight around Tibby Hedron's curiosity and and this and and that story? And how did how does she respond to if it's not about if it's not about you, how does she respond to the connection?
SPEAKER_01I say that just jokingly, but she knows what I what I do for a living. And um I shouldn't complete understand it, but she knows like the keynotes about her story. Um, so she's very proud of that. And you know, the fact that they've all come around now that what she was able to accomplish out of necessity, I now get to show the world um, you know, out of joy and and because I need it to, but have to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The way you described um the the the learning process, the that you you did and live through the things they said, but you also more deeply incorporated what you observed them do. There's an inverse lesson in that for leaders, I I think that that shows up in a lot of what you've talked about as well. And that's it, it's not enough to just say go be curious, or or say we are an expressive artistic, all ideas matter. The behavior is far more important. Uh and the behavior of the of the leaders is far more important in modeling uh the the desired outcomes.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely agree because like there's so many companies you can walk into and part of the values is either creativity or curiosity or innovation. And then you look around and you're like, well, where is it? Like, like how is it lived out?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I regularly say values are what's written on the wall. Culture is the uh is a sum total of actions and decisions.
SPEAKER_01Um like what you said, I listened to your podcast on Joe Boggs' podcast. Um the the term um culture on purpose.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Yeah, he said, yeah. Joe and I had a great conversation.
SPEAKER_01Like creativity on purpose, you know, innovation on purpose.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah, on purpose is so important in it in all of these, uh all of these pieces. Um because on purpose, I have found reluctance to to do things on purpose is often a hedging of bets and a and a worry if it's not the right thing. But not doing things on purpose leaves just a lot of churn and uh spun and wasted energy uh in not going after it. One other thing that I really that that I saw as a drew through line for for all of your experience and stories was the place of mentors and advocates. Uh whether it was your your coach uh who had the branding experience and gave that insight, or whether it was Tippi and and your mom, these things aren't found purely alone. Um and seeking out that support and perspective uh is often it appears to me is often a a critical through line for for that. How does that land for you?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, I I feel like the idea of not doing it alone really plays into the work I do and plays into like my whole life story, really. And whether it's an official mentorship, um, you know, relationship, or just seeking out that collaboration, right? So I think in in my world, I always say in in the work I do, I look at who in my network, who can I meet, who are gonna be great collaborators, who can add to them. I was listening to um Claude Silver. She is the chief heart officer of um Vayner Media. And she was talking about when you, whether it's a small business or low large corporation, people talk about cultural fit. She's like, I prefer cultural ad, right? Like, like how do like bringing in people who are gonna add to what you're doing rather than just fitting into what you're doing, which I think is like really smoke to me.
SPEAKER_02I thought just occurred to me, uh, this this isn't in the normal flow of questions, but I I regularly hear in terms of AI coming around, um, that it suppresses creativity or that it its effects, concerns about its effects on creativity. Uh, what are your thoughts around the the the near and midterm future uh in the work that you're doing and the value and the place of creativity and and whether or how AI being involved with that will affect it?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think it's interesting too, because I do use it use the very I mean, trust me, I'm not an expert in any of it, but I do use AI to help me filter my thoughts, help me expand my thoughts. So just as we talked about just a minute ago about this collaboration of with other people, I look at as AI as a collaborator, right? So like it can help me broaden my thoughts, give me new ideas. And yeah, I I just feel like creativity is so innately human. I have some people say, like, oh, AI is not creative. I don't think, I don't think that's true. I think AI is actually also creative, but isn't that and or, right? Or is that how you say, like, yeah, it's like we we can both be, we can both be creative and we can add to each other's creativity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, looking at looking almost like as AI as a as a partner and a collaborator.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That aligns very, very much with our approach on uh on on human-centered AI use, but AI think of it as a teammate as well. So all right. So so not uh not the death of human creativity, uh, unless we do that on purpose. Um That's right. Has anything else come up for for you around uh around this conversation? Anything else, any other insights before we dive into the lightning-ish round?
SPEAKER_01I would just like to hone in on this idea of creative leadership and creative problem solving. Um and Lego serious play, you want to talk about what Lego Series Play will have?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, I want to know, yeah. I I want to c I want a clean full description of what Lego series play is because I when when my kid and I are playing with Legos, it can it can get a little serious. Um, but I don't think that's what you mean.
SPEAKER_01No, the Lego series play, the way I see and know of it is through is Lego Series Play is an actual facilitation methodology that was started at the Lego group, trademark, registered, all whatever it is. So they were going through some strategic challenges in the late 90s, brought in um some specialists, be like, okay, what's going on here? And that what they found was they couldn't get the executives to think outside that left brain analytical thinking, and they couldn't think creatively. So they came up with this process called Lego serious play, where they took the tools they already have, clearly, and they started this process where it was about building metaphors, sharing ideas, and leveling the playing field because everyone in the room, you'll be asked a challenge question, like build a models represent, you know, what how to solve this challenge, what it might be. And then everyone at the table has to build. And then everyone at the table shares. And what makes that different is number one, the idea of everyone having an idea, because oftentimes in the corporate environment or in any environment, you may, the leader may ask a question, and you have those one or two people who will share ideas, right? And when they share the ideas, their the ideas are vetted right away. No, that can't happen. Yes, and you know, whatever it might be. So through Lego series play, everyone at the table shares, everyone at the table builds, everyone gets what their time is share, and then their idea gets pushed to the center of the table. So now you've got maybe the CEO's idea in the center of the table. You have the interest idea at the center of the table, and now there's collaboration with the models. And there's something about building a model and sharing what you've built in your hands, something tactile, that makes it different than sharing, you know, just off the top of your head. Um, people are willing to share more, they're able to share more, and now it makes it easier to collaborate. Um, so some of the benefits of Lego serious play, like I said, is all I do is make it the table that is better collaboration and you level the playing field so everyone has a chance to have their voice heard.
SPEAKER_02Love it. That's excellent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you get to play with Legos.
SPEAKER_01And you get to play with Legos, fun, where you're solving problems all the time.
SPEAKER_02You ready for our uh lightning-ish round?
SPEAKER_01Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02All right. Von what was your first job?
SPEAKER_01My very first job was dial a gift, which I guess is creative too. I worked, I made made balloon arches. Um, yeah, dial a gift where I made balloon arches and just like, I don't know what else. Oh, rap like wrap gifts.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow. Okay. That's uh that's a a core skill that I never really got down well. Uh there was a period of time uh where I took pride in not being good at uh at wrapping gifts, but I think uh after doing a lot of learning and reflection, that was just like armoring up uh and not wanting to put the uh put the effort into it. What's one leadership you've learned a lot of leadership skills along the way and you've got a great repertoire. What what was what's one leadership skill that you wish that you'd learned earlier?
SPEAKER_01Let me think about the ones I I talk about a lot. I mean, the the idea that all ideas matter, what I teach, right? All ideas matter. I feel like as a leader, when you think about leadership, oftentimes you think about the pressure of like, I have to know the answer. I have to know it all. And that's just not true, right? Like the answers might be in the room from someone else. So, like, how do you so to ask those questions and understand that that good ideas can come from anyone in your organization.
SPEAKER_02On the other side of the coin, what's the biggest myth about leadership that you've heard?
SPEAKER_01The biggest myth about leadership, uh, let me go with um, I guess it's in line with with what I just said, right? The biggest myth is like like you, oh okay, so I'm gonna go tell a story instead. Please, yeah. So when I started my business, I was so intimidated by anyone who had a C suite, you know, anyone that's sure. Um so I guess this idea that, and I don't even know this answers your question, but the the fact that like the C suite and these leaders are different than us, right? Um, they're at an elevated level. And when that broke for me was I was visiting my friend, his name was is Dan, and he had opened up this distillery in Bargetown, a huge distillery. He's the CFO, and went to visit him and his family. We went to dinner there at the restaurant, and I could see how everyone was treating him. He's the CFO of this company, right? And I was like, I'm like, that's how I look, right? Like that's how I look when I go to the C-suite. I look like I'm a little needy, like I'm in desperate, like whatever it might be. Like I was like, I'm in all of them. And then I looked at Dan like it's just Dan, right? Dan used to do when we're at Peperon University, he used to make me a Cheeto crusted fried fish. But really, I love to go like like there's nothing to be intimidated by, right? Like it's just someone else's Dan. Um that really changed the way I I approach leaders, um, which made it more personable, made it more relatable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, that's a huge call lightning-ish because that was not a lightning fast. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, usually it's me who takes it off the rail. So I'm really glad to have you as a company here.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I can help you with taking things off the rail very easily.
SPEAKER_02We talked about some really good professional advice uh you received over time. What's the worst professional advice you've ever received?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so that one more is around like being an entrepreneur and pricing. People, when I first started my business, people said, don't ever, you know, don't ever discount. Don't ever discount. Um, and I took that to heart. But then I realized it's like, oh, you kind of have to, as an entrepreneur, go through the motions and do things until and learn for yourself. So when people do ask me about that now, like as I mentor other other entrepreneurs, um, and when they ask about price, I'm like, do whatever makes you feel it feels right to you. Right. Because then what happened for me was I would discount and sometimes it would feel right, but then it got to a point where I was like, oh, that does not feel good anymore. So I had to learn for myself. It's almost like you you kind of have to go through the process. So yeah, so so again, that for me it was more of like um a personal learning moment in entrepreneurship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a simple the the intention behind do not discount, I've read that in a few different places. Yeah. I can understand, but but any sort of advice that is just that simple, uh, three three words is taken just as gospel is troublesome. Um Right, absolutely. Yeah. No, I've I love your version of that. All right. We always like to ask our guests, uh, what's a media recommendation? Uh, a book, a show, a podcast, a game, anything. Uh, but the only catch is it cannot be leadership or business related. Uh what what are you watching? What what makes you you?
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm watching TikTok. A particular Firestone Glass. I picked up, um, I picked up stained glass making about two years ago. And what I didn't realize at the time is that my college roommate, Debbie Firestone, actually has been making stained glass since college. And she's so good at it now. She has a business um called Firestone Glass. And I reached out to her the other day, like, how do you make this? And she referred me to her TikTok channel, Firestone Glass. So now I have all the tips and tools I need to um to do my stained glass making.
SPEAKER_02Oh, how cool. I just realized the uh there's a little bit of a trick of asking uh someone who is so creative uh in their business, uh, that they can't give a business or leadership thing. But I think that that cleanly falls into side projects and hobbies. Uh and so no, that's very cool. And I love that it's like a personal connection too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Isn't that great? Because sometimes you again, it's one of those things again where you're like, oh, you look at things and and there's this awe about the person, and maybe you won't reach out, or oh, I guess that's the other, I mean, this has nothing to do with anything we just talked about. But the other thing that I've gotten very good at is just being audacious in in reaching out and meeting people. And that's what that's probably led to a lot of great friendships, business partnerships, the same idea. Like everyone's just a human being, and you know, reach out, you don't hear back from them, don't take it personally. But I've gotten just had so many great connections just by being like, that's interesting. I'm going to reach out.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. Yeah. And that's and that one is hugely important and and huge uh I consider myself a fairly bold person, and I struggle with that every single time. Uh about coming up with all the reasons why they wouldn't want to talk to me, uh, as opposed to just I give it a shot and don't be attached to an outcome.
SPEAKER_01Yes. What that's that's great. Don't be attached to the outcome.
SPEAKER_02Well, I love it. All right. For everyone who's been listening, uh, Von Lai Damon is a creative keynote speaker and CEO of WorkSmart Advantage who helps leaders and their teams turn curiosity into a strategic problem-solving tool. Uh Von, we're we're gonna have all this, of course, linked in our show notes, but where can people find you? And what else do you want our listeners to check out?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So find me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm always hosting information and content on LinkedIn. You are also free to just email me and reach out to me at vanvan at worksmarkedadvantage.com. And um, my latest curiosity is like, what if I write a children's book? So that's coming out probably in September. Um, is being illustrated and edited right now.
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh my gosh, congratulations.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_02That's fantastic. Van, thank you so much uh for for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01Of course, it was really fun.
SPEAKER_02And for everyone else, follow, like, and subscribe to Bet on People on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And if you want to learn more about how we think about leadership uh at Uda, visit Uta.io slash executive coaching. I'm Keegan Evans and we bet on people.