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Bet on People
We talk to leaders and business owners about their journey learning the value of human-centered leadership and how betting on people isn't just good feels, it's smart business. We explore the career arc behind their evolution as a leader: where human-centered values showed up early and where they had to learn the hard way.
Bet on People
Bet on People with John Baird
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In this episode of the Bet on People Podcast, Keegan Evans, executive coach and AI Consultant at Euda and Limited Partner at Beyond Earth Ventures, speaks with John Baird, one of the Premier Executive Coaches in Silicon Valley, Faculty in Residence at Lucas College and Graduate School of Business, San Jose State University, Co-author of Leading with Heart: Five Conversations That Unlock Creativity, Purpose, and Results, a WSJ Bestseller, and the forthcoming book, Tough Enough: How to Lead a Team to Greatness without Being a Jerk, about building high-performance cultures that pair accountability with humanity. John explains how its seven habits aim to help leaders build cultures with excellence and accountability without losing humanity.
The conversation examines emotional thunder, the difference between urgency and personal attack, and how leaders can use war rooms without turning constant firefighting into the norm. John and Keegan also discuss fiercely pursuing the truth, practicing productive debate, and developing coaching approaches that connect leadership work to business outcomes. John closes with practical guidance for choosing one habit to practice rather than trying to change everything at once.
Expect to Learn:
- Name the Culture: Leaders should be explicit about the performance expectations, pace, and working norms their organization requires so people can assess whether the environment fits them.
- Pair Accountability With Humanity: Tough Enough centers on high standards and directness without crossing into personal attacks, bullying, or performative intensity.
- Use Emotional Thunder Deliberately: When an issue matters, leaders can name their emotion, define the problem, and request action while keeping the focus on the work rather than the individual.
- Close the War Room: Intensive problem-solving works best when it has clear boundaries, the right people in the room, and a defined resolution rather than becoming a permanent operating mode.
- Practice Truth-Seeking: Effective teams create room for people to assert a perspective, debate the facts, and stay engaged even when their original position does not prevail.
Episode Breakdown with Timestamps:
[00:00:00] - Teaser
[00:01:50] - Introduction: John Baird explains why he and Matt Hunter wrote Tough Enough and the framework’s focus on accountability, excellence, and humanity.
[00:04:00] - Road Bikes and Cruisers: John uses a cycling metaphor to describe cultures built for sustained performance, rest, and celebration.
[00:05:47] - Intentional Culture Design: Keegan and John discuss naming a culture clearly to prevent misaligned expectations.
[00:07:50] - Emotional Thunder: John outlines how leaders can communicate urgency and disappointment without making issues personal.
[00:14:28] - Harnessing Emotion: The conversation turns to using a pause, listening, and group problem-solving after an emotional message.
[00:18:13] - War Room Tactics: John explains why effective war rooms require clear accountability, truth-seeking, and the right people in the room.
[00:21:15] - Avoiding Continuous Firefighting: Keegan and John examine the organizational costs of treating every issue as a crisis.
[00:25:52] - Fiercely Pursuing the Truth: They discuss debate, assertiveness, and holding a position until the facts support a better option.
[00:27:40] - Coaching for Business Outcomes: John shares the qualities he values in coaches, including authenticity, tools, feedback, and measurable results.
[00:31:47] - Starting With Tough Enough: John offers guidance for choosing one habit to practice and using the framework to assess team performance.
🔗Connect with Guest John Baird:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnbaird2191/
👉 Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@john_baird
🔗Connect with latest project ExecCoach On-Demand :
👉 Website: https://execcoachondemand.com/
🔗Connect with Edgeman Coaching:
👉 Website: https://www.edgemancoaching.com/
👉 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/edgeman1944
🔗Learn more through John Baird's books:
👉Leading with Heart: Five Conversations That Unlock Creativity, Purpose, and Results
👉Tough Enough: How to Lead a Team to Greatness without Being a Jerk
🔗Reach out to John Baird's recent work:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnbaird2191_i-had-a-great-time-speaking-to-yu-chens-share-7453912372508905473-oVjx/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnbaird2191_it-was-special-to-deliver-the-commencement-ugcPost-7462995958755393537-xpKh/
🔗Connect with Host Keegan Evans:
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keeganevans/
🔗 More from Euda:
👉 Website: https://www.euda.io/
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/euda-io/
🔗 Follow the Podcast on:
👉 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bet-on-people/id1882863281
👉 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HgXTMbgkDsmuqzUiDGcXc
👉 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Euda-io
What's the fundamental framing that you want people to walk away with from Tough Enough? And why did you and Matt feel that right now is the moment to write the book?
SPEAKER_02I don't think I finished everything with my leading with heart. That book was so powerful in so many ways in terms of how we build great cultures, and the editing part is so strong. And yet, as I continued to coach people, people kept saying, you know, that works, but I'm still not getting enough out of my team.
SPEAKER_00Our guest today is John Baird, one of Silicon Valley's premier executive coaches, who has spent over 25 years helping leaders build high-performing teams without sacrificing their humanity. He's the co-author of the Wall Street Journal bestseller, Leading with Heart, and his new book, Tough Enough, releases this week. Alongside this release, he's also launching Exec Coach on Demand, which empowers startup leaders with AI-driven leadership coaching 24-7. I loved how in the book you used the metaphor of choosing a bike to ponder the question first. Where should I be looking at? Can you expand on that and how does it connect with your personal definition of success?
SPEAKER_02There's a lot of cultures that cruise. They're doing well, but it's a culture that really is not getting to that high level of performance. And that cultures can cruise along very well versus those cultures that are really the road-by-culture, which is just hardcore wired, accountability, clear manifesto, direction is really, really clear. And then there's cultures which I think balance a little bit. I mean, masterclass, tough enough cultures are just as much into growth and development. They're relentless about moving people up, out, across, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Let's dive into some of the habits. You've mentioned one of them, and another one that really jumped out at me is the habit of emotional thunder. What does emotional thunder mean and how does it show up in different ways?
SPEAKER_02Emotional thunder is one of those things where.
SPEAKER_00John, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Keegan. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_00It's wonderful to have with the conversations we've had offline. This episode is going to break from our usual format this season. Uh, we're going to focus on the single topic uh conversation because with a guest like John and his upcoming book, Tough Enough, co-written with Matt Hunter, there's so much in there that we want to focus entirely on that. John, diving in, let's just start talking about Tough Enough. What's the fundamental framing that you want people to walk away with from Tough Enough? And why did you and Matt feel that right now was the moment to write the book?
SPEAKER_02Keegan, it's a great question to start with. I mean, that book was so powerful in so many ways in terms of how we build great cultures and the humanity part is so strong. And yet, as I continue to coach people, you know, that works, but I'm still not getting enough out of my team. I'm still not holding on to high levels of accountability. And so uh we began to say, what does that look like? What are the problems there? I coached Matt Hunter in his early days, and he came up, Keegan, with this idea of tough enough. And I said to him, All my clients want this framework. I think I'd like to join you and write this book because I think I can add a lot to some of the client challenges I have and how everybody wants to build that great team. And they want to do it in a way that actually really requires excellence, accountability, but still do it with some humanity. Because the habits, there's seven of them, and we'll talk about a few of them today, right? Absolutely. I think it's it's interesting how all of those habits together collectively, and we'll talk a little bit about do you need all those habits, sort of equal a leader that is not this hardcore bullying, sort of abusive at times leader, which can really hurt people personally, versus that other side of the continuum, which is that sort of kindness, the comfort zone, the compassion, which is an important piece. It's part of Christianity. But how do they work together to build a culture really of high performance? And that's what the book is about. We're so excited because we think it's a framework that has not been discussed.
SPEAKER_00I love it. From tough enough and comfortable zones. Different situations and ambitions are going to require those different styles throughout and different positions on that spectrum. Can you expand on that and how does it connect with your personal definition of success?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think the bike metaphor is really a good one. I mean, there's a lot of cultures that cruise. They're doing well, they're performing well, but it's a culture that really is not getting to that high level of performance. And that both cultures can cruise along very well versus those cultures that are really the road bike culture, which is just hardcore wired accountability, clear manifesto, direction is really, really clear. And then there's cultures which I think balance a little bit. I think they do the mix of the road bike versus the cruiser very well. I would describe it as a pretty accountable, high-level performance, high level of truth, honesty. David Roger is just sort of wired that way in general. I think I'd say it's more of a road bike culture, but they also build cruising into the week. So every Friday, there are no emails and there are no meetings from a certain time of day. And it's like they want people to breathe, step back, relax, cruise a little bit. They use some of that time to even celebrate. So I like the fact that it's probably this more of a road by culture, but they build in the cruising parts of it to allow people to sort of step back and realize humanity is important and we're working all the time. So it's kind of a good way to think about building cultures.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I'm deeply on the record as uh a fundamental belief is intentional organizational culture is what is the true driver of uh success. And I've seen that across the military career and tech career and coaching. What I also love about what you're saying here in the spectrum and the choice across different organizations, it mirrors with some of the best advice I ever got in my life, which boils down to finding a culture that matches your personality and understanding what about your personality matches types of cultures. And that's the key to happiness.
SPEAKER_02So much like about the DoorDash culture. It's more high driving. There's they're high driving cultures. They've been created by founders, for example, that are high driving founders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You can kind of choose that. And I think that choice of what kind of culture. I also think, Keegan, there's something to leaders naming the kind of culture they want to establish. Absolutely. It's to your point about being intentional about this. I like it that people say it's a high-driving culture. It's really, it's really a road bike culture to use that metaphor. We'll have times in which we'll actually cruise, we'll celebrate. Yep. So naming that and being intentional, but being clear about predominantly 80% of the time, this is the kind of culture we are.
SPEAKER_00And it also, some of the most biggest problems that I see in cultures is not a bad culture, but a misaligned expectations. What uh frustration comes from an employee base or an individual who thinks it's supposed to be something else, but it's not either through intentionality or lack of intentionality.
SPEAKER_02I think onboarding that in the beginning, I think uh Tough Enough is a great playbook also for selecting people. I love the chapter on building the cult of incredibles. It's like how do you build that team? How do you maintain, sustain, grow them?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02And I think the tough enough cultures are just as much into growth and development. It's their they're relentless about moving people up, out, across whatever, but there's really clarity around looking at talent. If they're not working, it's time to move them, allows their gifts to just blossom.
SPEAKER_00That's wonderful. And that's also important, especially for startup founders. It's not a binary of you're matching our culture or you're not. There are other larger organizations create subcultures as well that can be different fits.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they sure do. So I think it's just being very intentional about what you want to establish. And so we feel like Tough Enough is a great model for balancing that, getting the results, having accountability, but also not forgetting the human side. So I think road bike and the cruiser bike analogy allows us to sort of think about that in a different way.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Let's dive into some of the habits. You've mentioned one of them, and another one that really jumped out at me is the habit of emotional thunder. What does emotional thunder mean and how does it show up in different ways along that spectrum? And I think most importantly, for those who might be first-time founders or early in their leadership career, how can a leader self-check whether it's an appropriate moment for emotional thunder?
SPEAKER_02I do work with some leaders who are not good at self-checking. Yes. Good moments, because you, you know, sometimes it's even though it was not great, the outcome was good. The performance maybe wasn't so good. Emotional thunder is one of those things where your verbal and non-verbal behavior cues up the fact that this problem to solve, this issue is really important. And either you're going to show disappointment, you're going to show anger about it, you're going to actually show up in an emotional way that's different from the way you usually show up. A lot of leaders go along the same plane. And it's kind of like they thought they said to people that was really important, but their language and body language didn't show it. Some of the best leaders that I've worked with actually harness their emotional funder. You always knew, for example, when Steve Jobs was upset. And so I think founders and leaders could probably be thinking more about if this is an important issue, a critical meeting. We'll talk more about war room tactics. You probably don't want to show up in a monotone tone of voice like we usually do. You want to really talk about the emotion. You want to name it, you want to name the problem, you want to talk about there needs to be an answer to it. You need to actually be the emotion, express the emotion. I am so disappointed. I mean, I can't believe the week that we've had the results from our customers are just dismal. This is not satisfactory. You can raise your voice, your tone, and yes, still do it in a way that actually isn't so personal. You know what I mean? That people can't separate the personal attacks from the message. And that's when it really deviates over into a place where people are like when people yell and scream, it's more about the ego of the leader. And it's unclear why they're upset. That is not emotional thunder.
SPEAKER_00I really like how you highlight emotional thunder. It's not about containing our base emotions to the right level of thunder. It's also about invoking that because the monotone or the flat uh can be just as damaging from a leader. I work with a lot of clients who come to me at a stage of their growth where they know that they want to mature their leadership. They know that they want to get to that next level, they know that there's something there, but they're not exactly sure what it is. And in that space, often can be the I'm bringing emotion, I'm bringing connection, I'm bringing thunder. Do you have any specific like self-check questions that or tools or tricks of that folks can use in that moment? Of have I gone too far?
SPEAKER_02I think that's a great question. About, you know, I think the book talks a lot about giving you some, it gives you a lot of concrete ideas on how to play this out in reality. As a coach, and you probably do this as well, Keegan. I will, if somebody's really upset and they're about ready to do a war room or ready to have a conversation, there's a lot of people who find it hard to practice emotional thunder. I've worked with a lot of people, particularly more technical people who are much more even keel. There's a lot to like about that, the calmness. But sometimes it's so calm that people don't get the message if this is urgent, this is really important. So I'll rehearse that. I'll have them name the feeling, start off with that disappointment, right? That anger, even be that if you can, or talk about the anger. I'm really angry in this moment. I can't believe I just looked at the dashboard for our customer satisfaction. It's the lowest it's ever been. But still keeping control. So helping them identify the feeling, how will we say it? What are the words? Indicate the problem we're trying to solve. So name it in that way. Indicate that we've got to do something about it and request some action around it rather than it's very interesting. I had a situation. This never got in the book.
SPEAKER_00I love the exclusives.
SPEAKER_02And somebody, I will not name the company or the person who literally got so angry and abusive. It was just, it was really like it was bullying. It was very ego-oriented, and it was so personal and so attacking and very ego-oriented. But he ended up leaving the room and he got so angry he left the room and didn't come back for a few hours. People stayed in the room and said, What was that about? They had no idea what the problem was that they were trying to solve or that he was trying to solve. I would almost rather nothing was said than that. And I think it caused some damage. I think you can overdo emotional thunder, then it's probably not going to work very effectively.
SPEAKER_00We had uh one of my roles at the end of my time in active duty was leading uh drill instructors at the recruit depot. And the understanding the balance of deep thunder that the drill instructor needs to bring, but also the role of the officer in charge, because to the recruits, the drill instructor is God. Well, God's boss sets a tone too. And if I come in with the same type of approach as the drill instructor, the drill instructors have to exceed that because of the expectation set. And that's the danger zone of accidental or intentional recruit abuse and crossing the line around there. So being able to measure and recognize that.
SPEAKER_02I love that from your example. I mean, the danger zone. I mean, if you're in the danger zone a lot, I mean, if the product's great and you've got good people around you, maybe you can sort of be successful, impact the long-lasting impact. And that's not a model that I would suggest that we coach people with. I do think it really is important to help people understand how to use it, to be intentional to use the models. I think you call it crew resource management, and the idea of assertiveness gets into this in the model, right? I think you talked about was it the ODA model? I don't know, the OTA model. There's a model there that that sort of identifies kind of what I said around naming the emotion, indicating what the problem is, getting the action, engaging people. But you want people at the end of that emotional thunder to say, I can tell you're really upset. We're ready, we're ready to help. You want to engage them, you want to enable them to support you in solving the problem. You need it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you articulate the a really well. There's a reason that the rallying speech before going over the uh into battle is a is a real thing. One thing that I've brought in from personal work uh as well is physiological check. And I know that my pulse, if my pulse gets over 110 when I'm sitting there or standing, then that usually indicates that I'm physiologically in a different place that it's going to miss like objectivity. And that could be an important thing too.
SPEAKER_02Techniques where uh I'll just say after you do this, you practice the five-minute wait rule. For five minutes, you breathe and you listen and you force yourself to sort of engage the group. You pull yourself out of that. I mean, we can talk about Jensen Wong, but I mean, he was particularly good at that in terms of harnessing emotional thunder, but then applying some certain sort of principles that are part of NVIDIA culture that allow him to sort of step away and let the group help him solve the problem. It's a very interesting concept. So take a breath, take five minutes, get up and walk around the room, let the group talk and allow yourself to begin to control the anger, the disappointment gets carried away with the emotion.
SPEAKER_00I love that. You brought up Jensen, you also uh teed me up for to talk about the ODA loop. Um, in the book, you talk about Jensen's listen, understand, and act practice and Colonel Boyd's OODA loop, which was trained to me at the very beginning of my military career.
SPEAKER_02Tell me about the OODA loop more because I think that I mean, we talk about that in prep for this, but I'd love to know how that fits with Tough Enough.
SPEAKER_00Sure, absolutely. So OODA, it's a funny sounding acronym because that's what we do in the military, but it's uh the four parts are observe, orient, decide, and act. And this comes from uh Colonel John Boyd of the Air Force back in analyzing fighter pilot uh dog fights in Korea and Vietnam and recognizing that every dog fight is made up of a continuous loop of those four things observe, orient, decide, and act. And deciding the most the biggest deciding factor in who would win in a dog fight is who could do that that loop faster and faster and faster in smaller loops. When I got into tech, I realized that it's the exact same thing as design thinking in terms of hypothesis, listen to the customers, make a decision, decide, measure the result and that kind of a loop. And listen, understand, act, and especially in terms of tough enough, it really comes in and matches this thing of are we in service of that loop or are we in service of something else? Are we doing something that interrupts?
SPEAKER_02I like the idea of being in service of the loop. And I think Jensen, I think it's the exact model. I mean, NVIDIA calls it something different, but it's the same thing. I think he uses emotional thunder. This is where you have a couple of uh things operating at one time. Even before he enters the room, he's very clear who's in the room. Yep. It didn't matter your title at all. You need the people in the room to solve the problem. And that could go down right to somebody who just uh Steve Jobs or or Jensen would say, Yes, they're the ones that are right with the product down here. And they kind of know up here, but they don't often know. So you bring the right people in the room, you frame the problem to solve with the right emotional thunder, you use some of the practices that you initiated in the model that you talked about. You begin to say, here's the time frame. He's saying, This is the problem to solve, it's got to be solved. I mean, he's had all kinds of challenges with supply chain issues during COVID, be able to actually use the war room, harness, get the right people in the room, back away at the right point in time, and then almost leave the room and let them solve the problem. It's kind of a beautiful model of there's a human side to that. It's strength. And they always know he's going to be upset and he doesn't hold back any of the emotion. But there's a human side to Jensen that plays out in the culture that is pretty unique, I think.
SPEAKER_00What I often see for folks who are trying to apply some of this, but struggling to stop at just defining the problem and letting the people in the room, knowing that you have the right team together and letting the people in the room work the problem. Insecurity, I can show those are often interlaced. One thing Dante Kig, it's like you brought up the adopt warfare tactics habit a couple times in the war room. So I'd love to, I'd love to just dive into a bit of that. Well, before we get into that, and as terms of structure though, you compare the seven habits of sitting like Russian nesting dolls and with adopt warfare tactics being the seventh and the last in the book. Why is that there and what has to be in place for this these tactics to be effective?
SPEAKER_02Everything has to be in place for that to it's like if you don't have a clear manifesto, if you don't have good practices of fiercely pursuing the truth, if you don't have clarity around how people show up, right people in the room, the right team, etc., if accountability is not really very clear to people in general, right? Yeah, it's going to be hard to have a war room that's characterized by people comfortable enough to debate. And the beauty, I think, of tough enough leaders is that they encourage debate. That's the human side. I mean, yeah, people like to win debates too. It was always an interesting thing. Can I win a debate against Steve Jobs? It's like we have to win a debate. But I mean, he did like Sparring, he did like people who actually could stay, even though he would say, No, I'm right, you're wrong. And that was a process that was hard for some people to manage. I still feel he liked the process, and it really contributed to the the the uh, I think the success of the situation. The war room was last because that's it, it doesn't last forever. I don't know. In the military, there are examples of the war was always there. If if it's not working, it's another war room. We kind of coach it that you can overuse the war room. It should be used when you've got this major issue and you just need to solve it. And but I do have cultures that actually use them periodically when they have an issue that's a customer problem and they've got an issue with the product and it's really impacting the sales, et cetera. They bring the right people together. So if you don't have all the other practices in place with truths and accountability and clarity around debate and how we work together, and video is so clear on the culture, the rule of is not going to work. You have to redefine the rules of engagement. I've seen that done. I've coached that as a it's hard if it's not part of a culture, it's not built into the it's the manifesto. It's all should be in the manifesto of who we are, how we work, what this direction is, and how we play as a team. If that's clear, the war rooms can be very effective.
SPEAKER_00I think in the uh in the military or the national security context, a a war room that never actually closes is called a quagmire, and we actually try to avoid the war room, right?
SPEAKER_02But I've seen war rooms too. I I've seen them in the business world too, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. It is a cautionary tale to be brought back into it. I can't emphasize how important what you said about it being a contained time or event-driven occurrence. Because what you're asking people to do, assuming that you've set everything else up right, which is not always a fair assumption, what you're asking people to do is bring in a level of engagement and intensity and style of work that is different from sustainable amount. And I've seen it, I'd love to hear what are the downsides, what happens to teens and individuals when the war room doesn't get closed properly or continuous firefighting just becomes that norm.
SPEAKER_02I think that it's very important for war rooms to end with clarity on what if that doesn't happen? What's the backup plan? And I think good leaders will say that, or will say things like, I don't want another meeting like this. Meetings take time, they take energy. I want this solved. If there's an issue about this, I would like to know about it. But I don't think Jensen ever lets it go entirely. I think good leadership is staying, right? Probably the military too. That's leadership stay. You're in the trenches with them if you need to be. I think that Steve Jobs was a master for being in the trenches during warfare, right? He was, he was. Part of that. He was working just as hard as everybody else.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02I think you talk about what if this is not acceptable. Here's the boundaries to this. It's one week. The parameters of decision, it can't cost more than this. It's really clear what the boundaries are. And I think if that clarity is there, the likelihood of it's something is much, much less.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. One of the uh where I've seen whether it wasn't a formally declared war room, it was, oh, we're an emergency or we're in a crisis, or I see it a lot in startups too. This drift into constant firefighting, uh, constant fixing mode. And what is often missed, maybe especially outside the military community, although I think it happens in, is the addiction to the adrenaline of that kind of a style of thinking, which can it can end up hurting the organization because we are not built to sustain a continuous adrenaline, a continuous fixer mode. And I've seen individuals just fail to step back, and then it's all of your everything has to go through this one person, and then there you can't move forward.
SPEAKER_02So glad Keegan, you called that out because in early stage startups, and I've worked with a lot of different kinds of startups, it feels like it's a fire drill all the time, it's a crisis. And I'll call that out and talk about the impact of that on the organization. And if you get feedback, and oftentimes we do 360s, we get feedback, and people are saying it's not sustainable. Yeah. So be selective about where you make the war room, make it not an event that's driven all the time. I like the way you phrase it. We tried to set that apart in the book that this is not something that happens all the time. Yes, set it apart. And so those are all the things that I think need to be called out. And I think as a coach, I find and talk about the truth. I think the beauty of people that are that have jerk behavior, it's very it's interesting. They get away with some of it. I mean, writing thieve jet jobs get away with some of the behavior that some of it was hardcore and niche because his manifesto was so clear. I want to be on that team and solve that problem with that product. I would and he had such loyalty to his innovations, his spirit, his manifesto. And there was nobody that actually fiercely told the truth more than he did, encouraging debate, analyzing problems to solve, more work in than anybody else would. I mean, he just was a model for the kinds of things he wanted to see happen. So when he actually had those moments that weren't very good, or maybe even kind to people, they forgave it because there was so much else there. So in some ways, I think about the habits that way, right? And there's some that are foundational, and the truth is foundational. I think there's doing the truth. I think the manifesto and the clarity with how you operate, your style, what kind of culture we're trying to build here. Apple's culture is not written down in a piece of paper. It is so clear what it is, though. Yeah, why? Because they act it, they breathe it, they live it every day in their product meetings, etc. So I just think there's some fundamental, you know, habits that are there that I see that. And then again, I think if you don't have that loyalty, that credibility, and you're actually slipping into hardcore sort of bad behavior. Oh, that's that is a formula for not success.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So many people that especially younger leaders, I found see the Steve Jobs example and the rage or the the that bad behavior.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's the seductive verb. But oh, if I'm just like that, I can be like Steve Jobs. But missing the hard work and and fiercely pursue the truth is one of my absolute favorite habits that you wrote about in here.
SPEAKER_01Matt Hunter, I think are his favorites too.
SPEAKER_00So it's it's so important. And you brought up crew resource management, which is an aviation framework with skills and assertiveness is part of that, which is uh holding firm to an individual's willingness to actively participate, state, and maintain a position until convinced by the facts that other options are better, uh, is in pursuit of that. Uh, situational awareness is another one of my favorites that I I I've used a lot this week, honestly. About uh uh the degree of accuracy to which our perception of reality reflects actual reality. And the combination of those to fiercely pursue the truth is uh the one place that this can get sticky for a new leader is how do you continue to be open and fiercely pursue a new truth while also holding a consistent vision as a leader to be clear and clearly communicated to your people? Where does that tension lie?
SPEAKER_02I think that tension is there, and I think oftentimes calling it out. There's often two truths, right? And it's like we call out two truths, it's where it is. As you talk, Keegan, about this. I was thinking a little bit about Ari and how Ari starts off the book. Remember the Aries? I like that because I learned how to coach better at Apple and to coach the sort of the style of Apple, but also to be true to my own coaching principles as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Ari was not able to stand up to his truths. He had a hard time asserting himself in a way that maybe it was the power of the room and the people that he was talking with, and Steve Jobs, et cetera. But I mean, it was it he had a difficult time staying in the game. And I think in many ways, the respect wasn't there for him by Steve and the leaders because he was not able to hold to that truth, even though it may have been wrong. Stay the course, assert it one time, assert a third time. And people walk away and maybe they'll come back to that. And it doesn't matter that you didn't win the point in the medium, you stayed in the game. It prompted others to debate back and forth. So the value, even though you didn't win the point, the value of the conversation that brings up and your relationship with that with Ari was as the coach.
SPEAKER_00And and we've talked, not every coaching client is a success story. Um we can talk about what that means for the clients, but I'm curious, what did that lead to for you? What changed or grew or reflected or questioned in you uh from that experience?
SPEAKER_02Well, I began to look at what what is the measure of coaching success for Apple? How do you measure that, right? I began to think that I probably need to come up with more interesting. I don't think I had the language then, right? This way back for me of tough enough that it didn't give, but I began to give more frameworks, more tools, more practice, more rehearsal. I am kind of a behavioral coach. I like scripting things, I like intentionality. It may not play out exactly the right way, sure, but I lost the practice of doing it and pulling it out for people. So I began doing more of that. I think I became a better coach after Ari. I think I coached people to be better in the room with top level people at Apple all the way around. Now it was a really good wake up for me, and it's learning. I think as coaches, we continually have to assess our work. We continually have to get feedback on what's working and not working for us. So it was a good, good wake up for me early in my career.
SPEAKER_00That's great. That also kind of tees me up. There are a non-zero number of coaches and consultants in the audience. You have a so I would say illustrious career in the field, uh, having built a number of practices. What are, uh, and since we've spent this whole conversation talking about other people's companies, what are some of the lessons that you learned along the way from the more practical building a practice? And not only a practice for yourself, but you grew companies that deployed multiple coaches.
SPEAKER_02I think because it's very interesting. This the thesis of is it human-centered leadership is not just about good feelings, it's about good business, like good business coaches. I would say I always lead with the idea when I'm talking to clients about my work. I do like making teams more effective. I like making teams higher level, higher performing. I like making people more accountable. I like raising the bar and bringing the right people on board. If it's a hiring kind of issue, is going to get you to a place where you get acquired. I just had a couple founders I work with that just got acquired by HB Enterprise a little while back, but they were so excited, and that was a win for them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Financially and also their product as well. I like taking companies public. I've worked with public companies. I like a goal, a business goal. So I like coaches that have a business perspective. I like um hiring coaches on our bench and both firms that I've developed as far as coaching, just personnel. I like that they're very authentic to their approach. I don't think we have the same approach always with any of them. They all had business backgrounds and wanted to drive sort of a business outcome. They're very outcome-driven.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I like the fact that their styles are authentic and I like that they will push people. So I have this concept at the end of every coaching session that I call the left hand moment, John's hand moment. So the right hand is what's being said in the coaching session. Yeah. The left hand is what's John has been thinking but not saying. Clients love my left hand moment. It's like I'll say something like, I can't believe we've talked about this for five sessions. There's much modern, I think you need a therapist. But my left hand is it could be about something that is just unfinished or a pattern or something I'm not dealing with. It causes a great, great conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I do like people who are not afraid of feedback, who push their clients in that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I like tools, I like coaches that have tools to kind of get at the right thing, frameworks for people to think through things like your frameworks that you've talked about. And I like coaches that measure results, not just like I love you as a coach, or you to everybody, what have we achieved? Yeah, what have we done? What's the outcome? I like outcome-based coaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Those are a few things.
SPEAKER_00I love it. Thank you. We spent uh Tough Enough is when this drops, it's available for pre-order for one more day. Get it there, but it'll be available uh to purchase. For someone who reads all these seven habits and feels overwhelmed because it's there's so much good information in here. What's their advice to start small? And how can Exec Coach on Demand play a role for them?
SPEAKER_02Exec coach on demand is my digital mind, and it has everything I've written, spoken on, you know, podcasts and commencement addresses, everything that I've done. I trained it. The book is in it. So tough enough is in it. Pat and I had bundled it together with the book. So you could say, tell me more about Jensen Warren, you know, said Apple, what was that really like? So you can go deeper, which is really great.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02To your question about where do you start? I think you start with what gravitates with you. What of those seven habits is saying, I've gotten so much feedback that we have no accountability stack? I've gotten feedback that we don't have a clear direction or focus, our manifesto is not clear. I've gotten feedback that we don't solve crisis problems effectively. I think I need a war room. How does that work? Start with something that gravitates with you and stay with that practice. Some of the practices we talked about the nesting and how it all works together. There's some that are always there regardless of the habit that you're engaged in, but start with something that you've gotten feedback on, you know is really true about yourself. You know, nonviolent communication is a great framework in the book. A lot of people gravitate towards that. We like that. It's kind of your assertiveness kind of framework as well. A lot of people in the pre-read to that, just gravitate to those things. A tough conversation. I need to have it with my co-founder. Do it. Use that chapter to sort of help you with that conversation. Start small and then think about how you can begin to add some things to it. And then look at the habits on your team. May use the habits to do an assessment. Where are we good? Where are we not good? Use it as a framework to assess how we're doing as a high-performing team.
SPEAKER_00It's more important that you start with something in here that resonates with you than that you get everything right. What jumped out to me about this, and especially the presentation of it being habits, not milestones, is it's a continuous practice, it's a continuous growth curve for the rest of the career. And I love it.
SPEAKER_02You can fall off the wagon on the habits, slight options changing. You have to sort of reinforce them in different ways. I have people on certain habits that they just need to be reminded, and they stay with a few habits for a long time.
SPEAKER_00So John, thank you so much. Thank you for blessing us with an early copy of the book. If anyone has not already read Leading with Heart, also cannot recommend that enough and get Tough Enough wherever uh it's being sold. John Baird is an executive coach and the co-author of Tough Enough. Of course, we'll have all these things linked in our show notes, but where can people find you and uh what else do you want our listeners to look for?
SPEAKER_02On LinkedIn, you can go to the uh Exec Coach on Demand website, which I think you really have. There's some videos on YouTube you can find me. I would not be opposed to people connecting with me if they have a question. There's something they want to talk with me about. I certainly get lots of requests for just a conversation. I'm at the stage in life where those conversations are very meaningful. I mean, I kind of met you, yeah. And I loved our relationship. I mean, we connected so much on the military part, particularly adopting the warfare tactics. And there's so many practices that you are engaged in your coaching that fit with us. So I love the fact that we got connected that way.
SPEAKER_00So likewise, yeah. If you had mentioned, I was gonna admit you are for someone who is in so many different places and with your experience, you are one of the most approachable and connectable people that I've ever met. My conversations just right from the word go, we're phenomenal with you. So thank you so much for joining us. We're delighted to be part of this book launch and with this special episode of Bet on People.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Follow, like, and subscribe to Bet on People on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And if you want to learn more about how we think about leadership at Uta, visit EUDA.io slash executive coaching. Bet on People is presented by UDA. Our producer and lead researcher is Molly Van Duzer. Our host is Keegan Evans. Special thanks to our editors at GHA Marketing.